12 ms·

Did your boss thank you for coding yourself to death?

139 points by yason 17y ago

gills 17y ago
Yes, my boss did thank me. Thank you, self.
edw519 17y ago
"He is dead, too much hard living!". Too much hard coding would be more like it. Wow, those ones and zeros must have really been heavy! Every time I see landscapers, construction workers, farmers, nurses aides, or anyone in one of my customers' factories or warehouses, I thank my lucky stars that I was born when I was, I had an aptitude and interest in programming, and I found the perfect career for me. Sure I work hard, but my hard work is hardly the same as their hard work. I've spent a career on my ass, building applications that hopefully make the lives of those who do physical work just a little easier. My last career was a cook. After a 6 hour shift in a 110 degree kitchen serving 2,000 meals, a 12 hour stint in an air conditioned office in my Aeron chair seems like a vacation. Oh, and did I mention I earn more in a month than I did in a year as a cook? I never expect my boss to thank me for anything. My boss (me) gives me the best bonus I could ever ask for. I get to do it all over again tomorrow.
- swombat 17y ago
  I hate to agree with you but... Wait, no, I don't hate to agree with you. You're absolutely right. "Died from too much hard coding"? Yeah right. Coding is hard intellectual work. And, as you point out, if you're not happy with the trade-offs at work, you can always start your own business. It's really an awesome situation to be in, compared to what we could have been doing a hundred years ago. Everything's amazing but nobody's happy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk PS: I doubt the coding is what killed "John".
  - kscaldef 17y ago
    I have a friend, he writes software for NASA spacecraft. His job is not inherently physically demanding, but many of those who know him worry that he will "code himself to death" eventually. When crunch time comes, he buries himself in his work. Doesn't sleep, forgets to eat, etc., for weeks on end. He's ended up in the hospital multiple times. So, that's what I think of when I read the story of "John". This has nothing to do with "not [being] happy with the tradeoffs". These guys are perfectly happy acting like this; being the hero. But it's absolutely not something I'm going to encourage my friend to do to himself.
    - sonpo 17y ago
      Isn't this caused by his personality and drive and not the fact that he writes software for a big, "important" name? If he wasn't writing software, it seems like he would probably sell, paint, drive (or any other "career") himself to death, right? I wouldn't encourage it either, but it's probably just who he is. It seems like these type of careers just draw that type of driven person. This is just a guess, as I draw from my personal experience.
      - kscaldef 17y ago
        Sure, but what I think the article is trying to say is that programming is one of these careers that encourages people to spend _way_ too much time doing it, to the detriment of the rest of their lives; and, furthermore, that we do ourselves and our colleagues no favor by engaging in hero worship towards the most egregious examples of this. Simply because we can't change other professions, doesn't mean we can't improve our own. And just because there are some obsessive individuals who "work themselves to death" doesn't mean the rest of us need to try to match them (or encourage them).
        derefr 17y ago
        And in fact, the fact that you can spend as much time as you like programming, without really needing a break due to any physical stresses inherent in the work, allows these people to abuse themselves both harder and longer than they could in any other field.
- bmj 17y ago
  Keep in mind, however, that every labor, whether intellectual or physical, exacts a toll on our bodies. Read jwz's stories of being nearly incapacitated by injuries brought on by long days at the keyboard with poor posture. I do agree, however, that many of us are lucky to have avoided the factory life. Read _Out of This Furnace_ sometime to appreciate the hell many immigrants lived through.
  - eru 17y ago
    On the other hand, idleness can be more exacting than labour. The health of unemployed people is worse than that of workers.
    - docgnome 17y ago
      Out of curiosity, do you have a citation for that? I'd be interested in reading about it.
      - eru 17y ago
        I heard the claim once in an interview with a German social-democrat who had to justify why making the labour market more flexible (i.e. removing some unemployment benefits in that case (see Hartz IV)) was in common people's interest after all. The guy cited a statistic that found long-term unemployed people comparable in misery to cancer patients. Long-term unemployment was (and still is) a big problem in Germany. However, a quick search on the internet for "health unemployed" (without the quotes), turns up articles like http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/feb16/creed/creed.html http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/feb16/creed/creed.html I also heard of other studies that found that top managers, despite having lots of stress on the job, are still more content and less prone to stress-related ills, than people who get their stress from being low on the social pecking order. (Perhaps somebody can find that study?)
- pw0ncakes 17y ago
  The "hard living" comment seems to imply drug use, a common cause of premature cardiac death. There was also mention of "coke" at the end of the OP, although it's ambiguous which unhealthy substance (the sugary one, or the deadly one?) was being described. I'd imagine that cocaine use is relatively rare in technology, but it occurs in finance quite a bit. That's the dirty not-so-secret of the long hours in investment banking. I also think it's safe to assume that cocaine use is a lot more dangerous than long coding binges.
  - kscaldef 17y ago
    I'd assume the same as a couple paragraphs earlier: "chugging coke and eating pizza at midnight".
  - strlen 17y ago
    I'd argue the sweet stuff can be quite dangerous as well when consumed in large quantities. There's the directly dangerous effect (weight gain, diabetes) and the secondarily dangerous effect (weight gain, low energy resulting in low self-confidence which triggers depression).
    - SamReidHughes 17y ago
      Coca-cola is definitely dangerous, and the temptation to power my way through coding problems with large amounts of Coke, which I could not resist for longer than a week, put me on the path of severe health problems, due not entirely to weight gain (since most Coke-based calories would substitute for other calories) but also from the practice of having a short term fix to any problems involving to consumption of sugar, not to mention the cycle of being tired -> drinking Coke -> being unable to sleep -> being tired the next day. After quitting (my job), I fell to a recreational level of Coke consumption, and my body is thanking me for it to this day. The scary question is whether I can maintain this through another development job...
- einarvollset 17y ago
  Don't be a fucking douche.
- hernan7 17y ago
  Sedentary work is bad for your health too, if taken to extremes. Lack of exercise, long hours sitting in front of your machine, stress, bad diet... that's not going to be good for your blood pressure.
- aarongough 17y ago
  I've been a programmer for 6 years, but I have also done quite a few labor intensive jobs. For me each has it's ups and downs. If you are sitting in a chair all day you are quite likely to develop postural and muscular problems, as well as being at a higher risk of obesity and other exercise related health issues. Working outside generally means a higher risk of (skin) cancer, but your body is doing what it evolved to do: carrying your consciousness around while you manipulate the physical world. Personally I find I have to go to great lengths at the gym to make my body feel like it is getting the exercise it requires when I'm coding, whereas when I'm working in a more physical job I generally feel very physically content at the end of the day... But, as always, to each their own.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I had a pretty pointed argument with someone here not that long ago about never having 'worked hard', my position was that for the most part none of us have ever worked hard. Talk to someone building an asphalt road in the summer about hard work, or a farmer during a bad year, an ambulance driver or a police man. Hard work means that your body is going to fail you long before it normally would have, hard work means that your hands have calluses. We're bloody lucky that brains are rewarded as much as they are, I certainly wouldn't make it for a long time working in a mine or a field (the two options that you had roughly where I'm living not that long ago). Sure, working under pressure can be tough, and demanding customers can drive you to the brink of insanity. But only if you let it. You've been a cook, I worked in a mail room at the ripe old age of 17, scrawny little kid trying to drag a mailbag twice my weight. I didn't give up but I can tell you I came close those first weeks. It certainly helped me to appreciate my good fortune later in life.
  - goatforce5 17y ago
    My brother's a paramedic. From what I can gather, 50% of the job is sheer boredom... Sitting around waiting for something to happen. 45% of it being a taxi driver for people who don't really need an ambulance. 5% of it is being calm as you deal with blood and puke and failing bodies and screaming relatives. And a tiny bit of it is ignoring their safety training and climbing down ravines or crawling in to burning upturned cars. He gets paid the big bucks for the 5%. Occasionally i'll ask how his day was and i'll get a burning car kinda story and then he'll ask how my day was. "I'm an overpaid typist."
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Firemen, policemen, same thing. Those jobs take a special kind of mentality to be able to do them well.
- donaq 17y ago
  Huh, how does comparing the current imperfect situation with an even worse situation make the current situation better? One might just as well say stuff like "You're LUCKY to have [insert contemporary OS]! Back in the day we used MS-DOS and didn't have mice so count your lucky stars!" when someone complains about their OS. A flaw is a flaw regardless of how much worse things used to be. Sure, be grateful for what you have (I am, just for the record), but don't rag on people who want to make things even better.
- nocman 17y ago
  First let me say that I agree with you on one thing: there are probably thousands of jobs that I feel fortunate to not have to do every day. And many of those are physically difficult professions that are taxing on the body. I also feel privileged to work in a profession where I get to do something that I enjoy, and I get paid for it. However, the situation you describe for yourself is not the same situation discussed in the article. You are making your own decision to work how ever many hours a day you work. And you are reaping the rewards from that work directly (I'm assuming you are self-employed, since you said you are your own boss). You are not being asked to work 80 hour weeks by someone else, and then not getting compensated even in the form of gratitude from your employer for going the extra mile to get something done for the company. I (and multiple friends of mine) have been in that situation before, and it's no picnic. When you are expected to deliver on deadlines that are beyond completely unrealistic, and are pressured on every side to "just get it done" by people who know absolutely nothing about developing software, and are reprimanded for coming in late after working long hours the night before it can be extremely hazardous to your health. Stress can kill you, and the body does need sleep. Long hours day after day for weeks on end catches up with you, and yes it can cause serious health problems. BTW, the fact that you are sitting on your backside the whole time actually makes the situation worse, not better. Happily, it has been a long time since I've been in that situation, and I intend to continue to do everything I can to keep it that way.
- mr_luc 17y ago
  I'd like to point out a contrarian view of conditions at some software shops that employ very wet-behind-the-ears programmers. I have worked in a union carpentry shop, as well as a Swift and Company kill floor. I also worked for 7 years as a programmer, 5 years working for others and 2 for myself -- in a part of the country where the market for that sort of work, and the pay, is just terrible. The carpentry job was better than programming as an employee, by far. At least at the places I worked. The prefab construction job was often extremely physical. It was often dangerous. Every day, I walked into work and there was a backlog of fully finished half-ton pre-fab walls that absolutely had to be moved out yesterday, all different sizes and bizarre shapes. My job was to use some combination of forklifts, hoists, bundles of styrofoam, truck strap, plywood and temporary structures to move, stack and pack the walls into the smallest space I could, and then load them onto a semi trailer with the then-largest industrial forklift that Clark made. Straps broke, racks turned over, thousand-pound walls sometimes fell or swung or crumbled a little too near for comfort, and other people didn't always work safe around you. You know why it was better than programming? Not because of the overtime pay or the view, although both were superior. It was better because reality asserted itself more often. If your boss thinks the hoist can lift 2X more than it actually can, that situation will resolve itself. Fast. When things go wrong, they go wrong fast and it's easy to assign blame. If your coworkers think that they can lift a 24-foot-long wall by attaching a hook to a single 2x8 stud, they'll find out quickly that they should listen to the people who have seen it done. We never ended up working like crack-addled beavers for 4 months straight because a team of yes-men convinced everyone that natural laws don't apply to us. Sometimes the company took on more work than it could actually handle. It became obvious very quickly, after a matter of only a few weeks. It didn't stagnate, dying horribly over the course of years as the backlog of unprofitable work dragged out into the infinite future. The existence of physical limitations made customers more reasonable; no one ever tried to order a 5-story Ruby Tuesdays for the price of a lemonade stand. The equivalent of that happened all the time at the software shops I worked for; I saw them take on jobs that called for the tracking and reporting of complex resource flows, stuff that would be ambitious for even a YC team with 4 months to kill, but the devs assigned were pure designers who had managed to learn just enough vbscript to provide some meaningful interaction on the website templates they sliced out of Photoshop. I know that there are people out there whose experience has been pretty different. Most of them probably react by moving to a better market, and that certainly seems a reasonable solution, although it wasn't mine. But to dismiss the reality of crappy programming jobs with a "wow, heavy ones and zeros" -- uh-uh. I literally enjoyed the kill floor better than one of my programming jobs. There are people out there who will abuse any humble, hardworking, inexperienced employees they have, and browbeat them into truly ridiculous efforts. I remember being 21 years old, being told that a project slated for delivery in 2 months had to be done for a demo to the execs of a chain of hospitals at the end of the week. I worked with zero sleep to get it done, because it was my project. At the end of the week, my boss slipped and cut his head playing with his kids in the McTreehouseMansion behind his McMansion. So on no sleep, I had to train all of these people in on the new system, people who were executives at our biggest account. I have public speaking experience; I put on a suit and did it. It was a big success. I didn't get overtime or a bonus, and I would by far have rather spent that week gutting hogs for a mere 10 hours a day and going home to relax afterwards.
motters 17y ago
Unless its directly in your own interests, it's actually irrational to be working out of hours. If you're being paid for the extra work or you're the company owner or a major shareholder then it does make sense, but otherwise there's little benefit to be had. There might be other special circumstances, such as if you're working for a charitable cause where part of the benefit is in trying to improve the wider society, but in most for profit businesses this doesn't apply.
- eru 17y ago
  Perhaps if you'd liked your work?
  - dpritchett 17y ago
    If you like your work enough to put in 80 hours a week on it please ensure that the additional 40 hours reward you in some equitable way. If you want to work the extra 40 hours for free you can do it for a charity (or your own startup!) rather than your for-profit employer.
    - eru 17y ago
      Why so much respect for charities? They are often hopelessly inefficient. If somebody wants to work extra for their employer, let them do it.
      - Tamerlin 17y ago
        If I work them them, I'd rather the company fire the one who wants to routinely work 80 hours a week. It's not helpful -- and I don't want to waste my time dealing with their code.
      - dpritchett 17y ago
        It's the opportunity cost. When you provide an employer with unpaid labor they profit at the expense of your family/hobby/startup/charity/mental health. Your extra time could be devoted to the benefit of people, projects, or causes dearer than your employer's pockets.
shrikant 17y ago
Except for one bit which was impossible to implement, though the spec said otherwise - even the client didn't realise this, but John picked it up. Let me see if I got this right: it was impossible to implement, but the spec said it was possible. The client didn't realise it was impossible to implement, but John made it possible anyway. So the spec was right all along, and John implemented it? Am I missing something awesome here that uber-hackers totally get? Can someone explain this to me?
- bisceglie 17y ago
  John did not make the 'impossible bit' possible, he discovered its inclusion in the spec and recognized whatever it was as impossible to implement.
  - dpritchett 17y ago
    So it was an NP-complete problem with a fixed time requirement? Edit: That was rude. My apologies.
    - kscaldef 17y ago
      More likely it was simply logically inconsistent. That's not at all rare in requirements documents.
    - eru 17y ago
      A P problem with a fixed time requirement is also not possible. (But NP may be possible to solve in polynomial time. Who knows?)
      - SandB0x 17y ago
        John knew?
- kscaldef 17y ago
  I think that's meant to read "but John picked up on it". I.e., he found the error in the spec which the client had overlooked.
gizmo 17y ago
> So, lawyer vs programmer, which one is the chump? The paralegal working 80 hours a week is a chump, no doubt. Many lawyers want money and status, and get disillusioned once they realize not everybody is going to make partner. Most of them didn't enjoy law school much either. So they invest most of their adult waking hours in the law, only to realize at their 32nd birthday that they might not make it. So I think they outchump us.
- nzmsv 17y ago
  Hmm... I think not being a chump requires the ability to stop and reflect on the situation. We are in an industry obsessed with "ninjas" and "rockstars". The same author who wrote this article bashing long hours has articles about how grades and good knowledge of math are all-important on his site. But these long hours and near-perfect grades really are just a way to compete. So we are in this cutthroat competition. Understanding math you are unlikely to use in real work is a status marker. So are grades. Are they just that? No, just like a shiny BMW is also a good car. But competition in any well-paid career eventually becomes unsustainable (or close to it). Doctors and lawyers are already there, but their fields had more time to get to that point.
  - Tamerlin 17y ago
    "But these long hours and near-perfect grades really are just a way to compete." The only thing that the long hours are competing for is favor from managers who don't have the faintest idea as to what a competent programmer does. I've said it before, but it bears repeating due to context -- the best managers would get rid of the workaholics, and yet most managers reward them.
    - arethuza 17y ago
      My own pet theory is that bugs are far more likely to be created late at night than at any other time.
      - Tamerlin 17y ago
CoryMathews 17y ago
"Programmers love to work long hours! There I said it, c'mon admit it, your job/boss doesn't make you do it, we do it to ourselves." I stopped reading. We don't. In fact a job that only required 30hr/w would be great. Even if I took a pay cut.
- huherto 17y ago
  My friend who is far more organized than me, logged his programming hours every day. His conclusion is that you are really productive max 6 hours a day and you fill the rest of the day with other work. Of course there are days where you can do development 12 hours a day, but it is usually not the case.
  - hello_moto 17y ago
    ... this is the truth that many programmers wouldn't admit ...
  - mattm 17y ago
    I also log my productive time and find this to be the case as well. Actually, I find 4.5 hours (6 x 45 minute blocks) a day to be the sweet spot but when you factor in breaks, it adds up to 6.
    - maigret 17y ago
      Yes, for the planning I was involved in where we took the tasks planned to the hours, 4 hours a day of productive coding was the most matching value.
- eru 17y ago
  80% of 40h/week (=32h/week) seems to be possible where I work.
- jheriko 17y ago
  I do... hell, in the worst case I can think of I did a 10 hour day, came home, coded my own project all night, went to work for another 8 hours or so of coding then came home and did a little more code before sleeping. This sounds stupid on reflection, but I really wanted to solve all of those problems at the time, and I nailed them all with a low error rate. :)
wheaties 17y ago
My company thanked me for working overtime on a project. Mind you, we worked 6-7 days a week for several months and got a 3 hour canoe trip. Hey, whatever, at least someone, somewhere recognized it.
- aaronbrethorst 17y ago
  So you got a 3 hour canoe trip, and the execs/partners in your company received gigantic bonuses, right? Had you worked five days a week for several months you would have had dozens of opportunities to take that same canoe trip without working yourself to the bone.
- benmathes 17y ago
  That sounds like they abused your monkey-brain's inability to measure the value of your time and that canoe trip. In short, that would almost make me more pissed off than no reward. No reward at all is cheap, a relative-pittance of an award is cheap and duplicitous. The next time they ask you to work an extra 50% for a few months, don't. Instead work your normal hours and give them a banana; that would only be fair.
  - varjag 17y ago
    I think you read too much into it. It is obvious both parties realize canoe trip is not a compensation for work, but a mere token of recognition. I.e. "although we can't afford/not willing to compensate it we are aware of the extra work you put in". Did execs got extra for themselves out of it? Maybe, maybe not. Without knowing the specifics and the situation of the company it is meaningless to speculate. Is it "fair"? Probably not. But then, in the military there were thousands of people who had to risk their lives and got just a shitty medal out of it - not even a canoe trip. Life isn't about fairness, but I think even a token recognition is better than the other most likely outcome - no recognition of your effort.
    - aaronbrethorst 17y ago
      At least in the military you're serving a higher purpose than 'maximizing shareholder value.' Assuming, of course, that you're not employed by Xe.
city41 17y ago
Working long hours is counterproductive. If you find yourself doing it, it's probably an indication there is something fundamentally wrong with your process. At my current job we have fully adopted agile programming and really respect the tenant that a developer should work no more (or less) than 40 hours a week (we also assume each day has about 2 hours in overhead, netting 6 hours of actual work time). It makes a huge difference. Leaving every day at 5 o'clock enhances everyone's mood, energy levels, ability to think, and the end result is we are far more productive during those 8 hours. Compared to when I worked at MS and 10 hour days were "normal" and 12 hour days were very common, I actually get a lot more done in an efficient, packed 8 hour day than a resentful, stressed out 12 hour day.
- huherto 17y ago
  yeah it is one of the principles in the agile manifesto. http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html "Agile processes promote sustainable development. The sponsors, developers, and users should be able to maintain a constant pace indefinitely."
- strlen 17y ago
  The problem with "everyone leaves at 5" is that everyone's forced to come in at 8 or 9. Some people work differently. I'd take a 50-60 hour work week with flexible hours (and ability to learn new technologies, improve existing infrastructure and initiate "venture" projects) over a 45 hour work week with fixed hours and a strict adherence to a development methodology. Perhaps that's why I am drawn almost solely to technology organizations and could never see myself working anywhere else (e.g., consulting or internal systems development).
  - city41 17y ago
    True, I hear you. I can't speak for everybody. But I still think there is truth that efficient, sustainable hours can be more productive than long, stressful hours.
    - strlen 17y ago
praptak 17y ago
"Well, unless that same manager is right there with you, entertaining you with amusing anecdotes at 2 am, his words are worthless." His presence at the office at 2 am wouldn't change this fact either. Staying late oneself is one of the ways to pressure ones subordinates into long hours.
agentultra 17y ago
Are programmers freaking lemmings or something? We're people, damnit. We choose to work overtime for various reasons. Some of which include: putting dinner on the table, keeping our jobs, getting our foot in the door, and so forth. In my experience there are only 3 cases for working overtime: 1. You're a new, mediocre, or terrible programmer. You've been given three months to deliver a web site using a framework that practically holds your hand and wipes your ass and yet you still need more time. Everything seems hard. There's nothing you can do but brute-force your way to the finish line: stay up late and work that overtime to get it done and make up for all the time wasted googling, procrastinating, and debugging with a shotgun. 2. The suits messed up. They set a deadline without consulting you. They took on a contract with an incredibly short deadline because the business needs the money. They forgot to plan ahead for the big industry conference and they need something to show off to the other suits that will be there. 3. You've entered a culture of slavery. You just got your foot in the door at a big company. Unfortunately things have been sliding downhill and they never told you just how bad it has gotten during the interview process. Some people who stick to their guns will run for the hills, but you've got bigger responsibilities and cannot afford to take another month off job-searching. If you don't join in, they'll just make you look bad and the suits will fire you. For me it's simple: if I can't get it done in 8 hours a day, someone didn't consult me for an estimate and its their fault. I may choose to work the overtime to get it done, but it's not something I personally tolerate. I value my life more than my work and my free time is important. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do to put a roof over your family's head and dinner on the table. It's not as stupid as, "programmers love working overtime because they're passionate people!" I'm passionate about what I do. But I'm passionate about life. Programming is a part of that. Slaving away to make some other dude rich isn't.
- Androsynth 17y ago
  4. You own shares in an exciting young company. You own your overtime, not the other way around.
  - jquery 17y ago
    Really? Let's do the math: Let's be very generous, you own 2% of the company, so you are entitled to 2% of the company's profits. Let's be generous and assume you contribute 20% of the company's productivity. Your influence on your 2% is equity is 20% x 2% = 0.4%. For this extra 0.4% compensation, you work 50% more hours. 50% divided by 0.4% is about 125x. So you are on the losing end of this deal by a ratio of 125 to 1. Your "screwed factor" is 125. Tweak the variables to find out your screwed factor.
InclinedPlane 17y ago
I find it amusing how many people work super long hours without thinking about the consequences. For one you are telling your employer how much less valuable you are, assuming you are on salary. Working 80 hours a week for the same amount of money effectively dilutes your hourly earnings, factoring in overtime, to 40% of its original value. If your boss called you into his office and told you he was switching you to hourly and giving you a 60% pay cut you would probably be pretty pissed, even though effectively it meant you made the same amount of money given your hours. For another, studies show that for software development people don't actually get more total work done working past about 50ish hours a week. All that other in-office time gets wasted by inefficiencies caused from over-work, lack of sleep, lack of concentration, and being forced to do tasks and errands at work that would normally be done at home (eating meals, relaxing, paying bills, etc.)
rjurney 17y ago
I started a new job a couple months ago after having worked double time for months at the last job. I tend to set tough/arbitrary deadlines for myself and then struggle to meet them. I throw myself into every job like its a startup and get very into it. I have a tendency to over-work. My new boss is aware of this. I get yelled at for working until 3AM. I am told to focus on a healthy balance. Everyone is encouraged to hit the office gym. I do so most days at 4PM, and it makes me more productive the rest of the day. Fruit for breakfast and vegetables are available for lunch daily. I work from home when I'm tired of sitting in my office chair. Since starting this job my resting heart rate is down from 95 to 72. And I'm more productive than I was at 80 hours a week and not taking care of myself. An unhealthy lifestyle is not efficient.
wenbert 17y ago
While many people here may disagree with this; this is very real in the Philippines. Maybe in your country, you are compensated for your efforts. But here, when you are working you never feel you are compensated enough. Seriously, the basic salary here isn't enough to raise a family. It isn't even enough to buy yourself a decent and healthy meal daily. That is why many programmers here, code themselves to death here. I have many friends who are very unhealthy because they have to work 2 or 3 jobs at the same time. Coffee and cigarettes seem to make them think faster (BTW, I haven't had a cigarette in over a month, so yay for me) or probably they do not have enough time for other pleasures aside from these. I myself used to work 9.6 hours (that's with no overtime) from Mondays to Fridays. When I got home I work an extra 6 hours on the internet. On weekends, I work at least 8 hours. And I still live with my mom because I still can't afford to live alone and have an internet connection. Working your mind off I think is as hard ass working physically. At least my brother, who is a nurse can sleep soundly at night without thinking about solving anything. He can rest his mind and his body. I on the other cannot rest my mind and therefore it is impossible for me to rest my body. I love to code that is why I do what I do. But sometimes, posts like these come up from time to time. Also, I think this is more of a problem with the entire system here. FYI: Nurses here are paid dirt shit. Not even above the minimum wage: about 240PHP a day and a Big Mac is about 150PHP. They are paid less than the floor cleaners in the hospital and the hospital treats them like shit. I can easily make 3 to 4 times from what he gets per month. He chose this career because there is an opportunity for him to go to another country where he gets paid what he deserves. He is really good at his job and he has a passion for it. Too bad the hospitals treat their nurses like disposable cups.
- julsonl 17y ago
  Oh I didn't know that was the case. I grew up and graduated in the Philippines with a Computer Science degree, but didn't manage to experience work there. Most of my friends work in HP, Canon and other multi-nationals, and entry-level work is paid dirt-cheap. Although it scales up considerably as you gain experience, though I've heard that it doesn't scale and pay as well as someone on the IT management track, which sucks. Maybe that is also the case in Cebu? I'm only familiar with Manila. Also, I've always had the impression that living with your mom does not carry the same stigma as here in the US. The only time people release their shackles from their parents is when they get married, even that doesn't occur quite often too. Why are you working over-time in the weekends anyway? Is it related to your Monday-to-Friday job?
alttab 17y ago
Ever try moving a man by pushing on his ankles? How about his head? Smart programmers use just enough effort in the right places to get the effect they want. Dumb programmers right a lot of code. The code you never write never breaks, and never needs fixing. I'm starting to realize that if no one else will give a shit - don't do it. Of course, this isn't a free pass to write shitty code. You don't have to be ineffective to take pride in your work.
avk 17y ago
I balance slavish dedication with passion. The more I care, the less I mind putting in more time because it really doesn't feel like work. That works for me, at least while I'm young and hungry for startups. My approach changes dramatically when I'm working for somebody else because it's hard to find something to care about on the same level as your passion projects. So the key seems to be passion. Have a lot of it? "Work" more because it's not really work. Have a little? Mind your hours and your rate.
nonononono 17y ago
Nope. During the day my coding is like driving a taxi - it's driving, but I don't really get a say in where I go, or when, and I have to make sure other people are happy with it. When I code at home, I'm a boy racer - hooning around doing cool stuff as and when I feel like it. If it ain't like that for you, you've either been exceptionally lucky in the job market, or you're being played and haven't even got the nouse to have noticed yet.
tlb 17y ago
Thank you to everyone who has worked hard either as a colleague or by building any of the products that make me happy. I'm genuinely grateful to all of you, from the folks at HP in the 70s who made wonderful calculators (my first exposure to great technology) up through today where Apple, Dropbox, Google, and many others are a large part of my daily life. Your hard work has made things that changed the course of history, pleased millions of users, and affected everyone on the planet in some way. Keep up the good work.
Jd 17y ago
I don't code for my boss. I code for myself.
silentium 17y ago
No that's why I quit !

139 points by yason 17y ago

gills 17y ago

Yes, my boss did thank me. Thank you, self.

"He is dead, too much hard living!". Too much hard coding would be more like it. Wow, those ones and zeros must have really been heavy! Every time I see landscapers, construction workers, farmers, nurses aides, or anyone in one of my customers' factories or warehouses, I thank my lucky stars that I was born when I was, I had an aptitude and interest in programming, and I found the perfect career for me. Sure I work hard, but my hard work is hardly the same as their hard work. I've spent a career on my ass, building applications that hopefully make the lives of those who do physical work just a little easier. My last career was a cook. After a 6 hour shift in a 110 degree kitchen serving 2,000 meals, a 12 hour stint in an air conditioned office in my Aeron chair seems like a vacation. Oh, and did I mention I earn more in a month than I did in a year as a cook? I never expect my boss to thank me for anything. My boss (me) gives me the best bonus I could ever ask for. I get to do it all over again tomorrow.

swombat 17y ago
I hate to agree with you but... Wait, no, I don't hate to agree with you. You're absolutely right. "Died from too much hard coding"? Yeah right. Coding is hard intellectual work. And, as you point out, if you're not happy with the trade-offs at work, you can always start your own business. It's really an awesome situation to be in, compared to what we could have been doing a hundred years ago. Everything's amazing but nobody's happy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk PS: I doubt the coding is what killed "John".
- kscaldef 17y ago
  I have a friend, he writes software for NASA spacecraft. His job is not inherently physically demanding, but many of those who know him worry that he will "code himself to death" eventually. When crunch time comes, he buries himself in his work. Doesn't sleep, forgets to eat, etc., for weeks on end. He's ended up in the hospital multiple times. So, that's what I think of when I read the story of "John". This has nothing to do with "not [being] happy with the tradeoffs". These guys are perfectly happy acting like this; being the hero. But it's absolutely not something I'm going to encourage my friend to do to himself.
  - sonpo 17y ago
    Isn't this caused by his personality and drive and not the fact that he writes software for a big, "important" name? If he wasn't writing software, it seems like he would probably sell, paint, drive (or any other "career") himself to death, right? I wouldn't encourage it either, but it's probably just who he is. It seems like these type of careers just draw that type of driven person. This is just a guess, as I draw from my personal experience.
    - kscaldef 17y ago
      Sure, but what I think the article is trying to say is that programming is one of these careers that encourages people to spend _way_ too much time doing it, to the detriment of the rest of their lives; and, furthermore, that we do ourselves and our colleagues no favor by engaging in hero worship towards the most egregious examples of this. Simply because we can't change other professions, doesn't mean we can't improve our own. And just because there are some obsessive individuals who "work themselves to death" doesn't mean the rest of us need to try to match them (or encourage them).
      - derefr 17y ago
        And in fact, the fact that you can spend as much time as you like programming, without really needing a break due to any physical stresses inherent in the work, allows these people to abuse themselves both harder and longer than they could in any other field.
bmj 17y ago
Keep in mind, however, that every labor, whether intellectual or physical, exacts a toll on our bodies. Read jwz's stories of being nearly incapacitated by injuries brought on by long days at the keyboard with poor posture. I do agree, however, that many of us are lucky to have avoided the factory life. Read _Out of This Furnace_ sometime to appreciate the hell many immigrants lived through.
- eru 17y ago
  On the other hand, idleness can be more exacting than labour. The health of unemployed people is worse than that of workers.
  - docgnome 17y ago
    Out of curiosity, do you have a citation for that? I'd be interested in reading about it.
    - eru 17y ago
      I heard the claim once in an interview with a German social-democrat who had to justify why making the labour market more flexible (i.e. removing some unemployment benefits in that case (see Hartz IV)) was in common people's interest after all. The guy cited a statistic that found long-term unemployed people comparable in misery to cancer patients. Long-term unemployment was (and still is) a big problem in Germany. However, a quick search on the internet for "health unemployed" (without the quotes), turns up articles like http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/feb16/creed/creed.html http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/feb16/creed/creed.html I also heard of other studies that found that top managers, despite having lots of stress on the job, are still more content and less prone to stress-related ills, than people who get their stress from being low on the social pecking order. (Perhaps somebody can find that study?)
pw0ncakes 17y ago
The "hard living" comment seems to imply drug use, a common cause of premature cardiac death. There was also mention of "coke" at the end of the OP, although it's ambiguous which unhealthy substance (the sugary one, or the deadly one?) was being described. I'd imagine that cocaine use is relatively rare in technology, but it occurs in finance quite a bit. That's the dirty not-so-secret of the long hours in investment banking. I also think it's safe to assume that cocaine use is a lot more dangerous than long coding binges.
- kscaldef 17y ago
  I'd assume the same as a couple paragraphs earlier: "chugging coke and eating pizza at midnight".
- strlen 17y ago
  I'd argue the sweet stuff can be quite dangerous as well when consumed in large quantities. There's the directly dangerous effect (weight gain, diabetes) and the secondarily dangerous effect (weight gain, low energy resulting in low self-confidence which triggers depression).
  - SamReidHughes 17y ago
    Coca-cola is definitely dangerous, and the temptation to power my way through coding problems with large amounts of Coke, which I could not resist for longer than a week, put me on the path of severe health problems, due not entirely to weight gain (since most Coke-based calories would substitute for other calories) but also from the practice of having a short term fix to any problems involving to consumption of sugar, not to mention the cycle of being tired -> drinking Coke -> being unable to sleep -> being tired the next day. After quitting (my job), I fell to a recreational level of Coke consumption, and my body is thanking me for it to this day. The scary question is whether I can maintain this through another development job...
einarvollset 17y ago
Don't be a fucking douche.
hernan7 17y ago
Sedentary work is bad for your health too, if taken to extremes. Lack of exercise, long hours sitting in front of your machine, stress, bad diet... that's not going to be good for your blood pressure.
aarongough 17y ago
I've been a programmer for 6 years, but I have also done quite a few labor intensive jobs. For me each has it's ups and downs. If you are sitting in a chair all day you are quite likely to develop postural and muscular problems, as well as being at a higher risk of obesity and other exercise related health issues. Working outside generally means a higher risk of (skin) cancer, but your body is doing what it evolved to do: carrying your consciousness around while you manipulate the physical world. Personally I find I have to go to great lengths at the gym to make my body feel like it is getting the exercise it requires when I'm coding, whereas when I'm working in a more physical job I generally feel very physically content at the end of the day... But, as always, to each their own.
jacquesm 17y ago
I had a pretty pointed argument with someone here not that long ago about never having 'worked hard', my position was that for the most part none of us have ever worked hard. Talk to someone building an asphalt road in the summer about hard work, or a farmer during a bad year, an ambulance driver or a police man. Hard work means that your body is going to fail you long before it normally would have, hard work means that your hands have calluses. We're bloody lucky that brains are rewarded as much as they are, I certainly wouldn't make it for a long time working in a mine or a field (the two options that you had roughly where I'm living not that long ago). Sure, working under pressure can be tough, and demanding customers can drive you to the brink of insanity. But only if you let it. You've been a cook, I worked in a mail room at the ripe old age of 17, scrawny little kid trying to drag a mailbag twice my weight. I didn't give up but I can tell you I came close those first weeks. It certainly helped me to appreciate my good fortune later in life.
- goatforce5 17y ago
  My brother's a paramedic. From what I can gather, 50% of the job is sheer boredom... Sitting around waiting for something to happen. 45% of it being a taxi driver for people who don't really need an ambulance. 5% of it is being calm as you deal with blood and puke and failing bodies and screaming relatives. And a tiny bit of it is ignoring their safety training and climbing down ravines or crawling in to burning upturned cars. He gets paid the big bucks for the 5%. Occasionally i'll ask how his day was and i'll get a burning car kinda story and then he'll ask how my day was. "I'm an overpaid typist."
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Firemen, policemen, same thing. Those jobs take a special kind of mentality to be able to do them well.
donaq 17y ago
Huh, how does comparing the current imperfect situation with an even worse situation make the current situation better? One might just as well say stuff like "You're LUCKY to have [insert contemporary OS]! Back in the day we used MS-DOS and didn't have mice so count your lucky stars!" when someone complains about their OS. A flaw is a flaw regardless of how much worse things used to be. Sure, be grateful for what you have (I am, just for the record), but don't rag on people who want to make things even better.
nocman 17y ago
First let me say that I agree with you on one thing: there are probably thousands of jobs that I feel fortunate to not have to do every day. And many of those are physically difficult professions that are taxing on the body. I also feel privileged to work in a profession where I get to do something that I enjoy, and I get paid for it. However, the situation you describe for yourself is not the same situation discussed in the article. You are making your own decision to work how ever many hours a day you work. And you are reaping the rewards from that work directly (I'm assuming you are self-employed, since you said you are your own boss). You are not being asked to work 80 hour weeks by someone else, and then not getting compensated even in the form of gratitude from your employer for going the extra mile to get something done for the company. I (and multiple friends of mine) have been in that situation before, and it's no picnic. When you are expected to deliver on deadlines that are beyond completely unrealistic, and are pressured on every side to "just get it done" by people who know absolutely nothing about developing software, and are reprimanded for coming in late after working long hours the night before it can be extremely hazardous to your health. Stress can kill you, and the body does need sleep. Long hours day after day for weeks on end catches up with you, and yes it can cause serious health problems. BTW, the fact that you are sitting on your backside the whole time actually makes the situation worse, not better. Happily, it has been a long time since I've been in that situation, and I intend to continue to do everything I can to keep it that way.
mr_luc 17y ago
I'd like to point out a contrarian view of conditions at some software shops that employ very wet-behind-the-ears programmers. I have worked in a union carpentry shop, as well as a Swift and Company kill floor. I also worked for 7 years as a programmer, 5 years working for others and 2 for myself -- in a part of the country where the market for that sort of work, and the pay, is just terrible. The carpentry job was better than programming as an employee, by far. At least at the places I worked. The prefab construction job was often extremely physical. It was often dangerous. Every day, I walked into work and there was a backlog of fully finished half-ton pre-fab walls that absolutely had to be moved out yesterday, all different sizes and bizarre shapes. My job was to use some combination of forklifts, hoists, bundles of styrofoam, truck strap, plywood and temporary structures to move, stack and pack the walls into the smallest space I could, and then load them onto a semi trailer with the then-largest industrial forklift that Clark made. Straps broke, racks turned over, thousand-pound walls sometimes fell or swung or crumbled a little too near for comfort, and other people didn't always work safe around you. You know why it was better than programming? Not because of the overtime pay or the view, although both were superior. It was better because reality asserted itself more often. If your boss thinks the hoist can lift 2X more than it actually can, that situation will resolve itself. Fast. When things go wrong, they go wrong fast and it's easy to assign blame. If your coworkers think that they can lift a 24-foot-long wall by attaching a hook to a single 2x8 stud, they'll find out quickly that they should listen to the people who have seen it done. We never ended up working like crack-addled beavers for 4 months straight because a team of yes-men convinced everyone that natural laws don't apply to us. Sometimes the company took on more work than it could actually handle. It became obvious very quickly, after a matter of only a few weeks. It didn't stagnate, dying horribly over the course of years as the backlog of unprofitable work dragged out into the infinite future. The existence of physical limitations made customers more reasonable; no one ever tried to order a 5-story Ruby Tuesdays for the price of a lemonade stand. The equivalent of that happened all the time at the software shops I worked for; I saw them take on jobs that called for the tracking and reporting of complex resource flows, stuff that would be ambitious for even a YC team with 4 months to kill, but the devs assigned were pure designers who had managed to learn just enough vbscript to provide some meaningful interaction on the website templates they sliced out of Photoshop. I know that there are people out there whose experience has been pretty different. Most of them probably react by moving to a better market, and that certainly seems a reasonable solution, although it wasn't mine. But to dismiss the reality of crappy programming jobs with a "wow, heavy ones and zeros" -- uh-uh. I literally enjoyed the kill floor better than one of my programming jobs. There are people out there who will abuse any humble, hardworking, inexperienced employees they have, and browbeat them into truly ridiculous efforts. I remember being 21 years old, being told that a project slated for delivery in 2 months had to be done for a demo to the execs of a chain of hospitals at the end of the week. I worked with zero sleep to get it done, because it was my project. At the end of the week, my boss slipped and cut his head playing with his kids in the McTreehouseMansion behind his McMansion. So on no sleep, I had to train all of these people in on the new system, people who were executives at our biggest account. I have public speaking experience; I put on a suit and did it. It was a big success. I didn't get overtime or a bonus, and I would by far have rather spent that week gutting hogs for a mere 10 hours a day and going home to relax afterwards.

motters 17y ago

Unless its directly in your own interests, it's actually irrational to be working out of hours. If you're being paid for the extra work or you're the company owner or a major shareholder then it does make sense, but otherwise there's little benefit to be had. There might be other special circumstances, such as if you're working for a charitable cause where part of the benefit is in trying to improve the wider society, but in most for profit businesses this doesn't apply.

eru 17y ago
Perhaps if you'd liked your work?
- dpritchett 17y ago
  If you like your work enough to put in 80 hours a week on it please ensure that the additional 40 hours reward you in some equitable way. If you want to work the extra 40 hours for free you can do it for a charity (or your own startup!) rather than your for-profit employer.
  - eru 17y ago
    Why so much respect for charities? They are often hopelessly inefficient. If somebody wants to work extra for their employer, let them do it.
    - Tamerlin 17y ago
      If I work them them, I'd rather the company fire the one who wants to routinely work 80 hours a week. It's not helpful -- and I don't want to waste my time dealing with their code.
    - dpritchett 17y ago
      It's the opportunity cost. When you provide an employer with unpaid labor they profit at the expense of your family/hobby/startup/charity/mental health. Your extra time could be devoted to the benefit of people, projects, or causes dearer than your employer's pockets.

shrikant 17y ago

Except for one bit which was impossible to implement, though the spec said otherwise - even the client didn't realise this, but John picked it up. Let me see if I got this right: it was impossible to implement, but the spec said it was possible. The client didn't realise it was impossible to implement, but John made it possible anyway. So the spec was right all along, and John implemented it? Am I missing something awesome here that uber-hackers totally get? Can someone explain this to me?

bisceglie 17y ago
John did not make the 'impossible bit' possible, he discovered its inclusion in the spec and recognized whatever it was as impossible to implement.
- dpritchett 17y ago
  So it was an NP-complete problem with a fixed time requirement? Edit: That was rude. My apologies.
  - kscaldef 17y ago
    More likely it was simply logically inconsistent. That's not at all rare in requirements documents.
  - eru 17y ago
    A P problem with a fixed time requirement is also not possible. (But NP may be possible to solve in polynomial time. Who knows?)
    - SandB0x 17y ago
      John knew?
kscaldef 17y ago
I think that's meant to read "but John picked up on it". I.e., he found the error in the spec which the client had overlooked.

gizmo 17y ago

> So, lawyer vs programmer, which one is the chump? The paralegal working 80 hours a week is a chump, no doubt. Many lawyers want money and status, and get disillusioned once they realize not everybody is going to make partner. Most of them didn't enjoy law school much either. So they invest most of their adult waking hours in the law, only to realize at their 32nd birthday that they might not make it. So I think they outchump us.

nzmsv 17y ago
Hmm... I think not being a chump requires the ability to stop and reflect on the situation. We are in an industry obsessed with "ninjas" and "rockstars". The same author who wrote this article bashing long hours has articles about how grades and good knowledge of math are all-important on his site. But these long hours and near-perfect grades really are just a way to compete. So we are in this cutthroat competition. Understanding math you are unlikely to use in real work is a status marker. So are grades. Are they just that? No, just like a shiny BMW is also a good car. But competition in any well-paid career eventually becomes unsustainable (or close to it). Doctors and lawyers are already there, but their fields had more time to get to that point.
- Tamerlin 17y ago
  "But these long hours and near-perfect grades really are just a way to compete." The only thing that the long hours are competing for is favor from managers who don't have the faintest idea as to what a competent programmer does. I've said it before, but it bears repeating due to context -- the best managers would get rid of the workaholics, and yet most managers reward them.
  - arethuza 17y ago
    My own pet theory is that bugs are far more likely to be created late at night than at any other time.
    - Tamerlin 17y ago

CoryMathews 17y ago

"Programmers love to work long hours! There I said it, c'mon admit it, your job/boss doesn't make you do it, we do it to ourselves." I stopped reading. We don't. In fact a job that only required 30hr/w would be great. Even if I took a pay cut.

huherto 17y ago
My friend who is far more organized than me, logged his programming hours every day. His conclusion is that you are really productive max 6 hours a day and you fill the rest of the day with other work. Of course there are days where you can do development 12 hours a day, but it is usually not the case.
- hello_moto 17y ago
  ... this is the truth that many programmers wouldn't admit ...
- mattm 17y ago
  I also log my productive time and find this to be the case as well. Actually, I find 4.5 hours (6 x 45 minute blocks) a day to be the sweet spot but when you factor in breaks, it adds up to 6.
  - maigret 17y ago
    Yes, for the planning I was involved in where we took the tasks planned to the hours, 4 hours a day of productive coding was the most matching value.
eru 17y ago
80% of 40h/week (=32h/week) seems to be possible where I work.
jheriko 17y ago
I do... hell, in the worst case I can think of I did a 10 hour day, came home, coded my own project all night, went to work for another 8 hours or so of coding then came home and did a little more code before sleeping. This sounds stupid on reflection, but I really wanted to solve all of those problems at the time, and I nailed them all with a low error rate. :)

wheaties 17y ago

My company thanked me for working overtime on a project. Mind you, we worked 6-7 days a week for several months and got a 3 hour canoe trip. Hey, whatever, at least someone, somewhere recognized it.

aaronbrethorst 17y ago
So you got a 3 hour canoe trip, and the execs/partners in your company received gigantic bonuses, right? Had you worked five days a week for several months you would have had dozens of opportunities to take that same canoe trip without working yourself to the bone.
benmathes 17y ago
That sounds like they abused your monkey-brain's inability to measure the value of your time and that canoe trip. In short, that would almost make me more pissed off than no reward. No reward at all is cheap, a relative-pittance of an award is cheap and duplicitous. The next time they ask you to work an extra 50% for a few months, don't. Instead work your normal hours and give them a banana; that would only be fair.
- varjag 17y ago
  I think you read too much into it. It is obvious both parties realize canoe trip is not a compensation for work, but a mere token of recognition. I.e. "although we can't afford/not willing to compensate it we are aware of the extra work you put in". Did execs got extra for themselves out of it? Maybe, maybe not. Without knowing the specifics and the situation of the company it is meaningless to speculate. Is it "fair"? Probably not. But then, in the military there were thousands of people who had to risk their lives and got just a shitty medal out of it - not even a canoe trip. Life isn't about fairness, but I think even a token recognition is better than the other most likely outcome - no recognition of your effort.
  - aaronbrethorst 17y ago
    At least in the military you're serving a higher purpose than 'maximizing shareholder value.' Assuming, of course, that you're not employed by Xe.

city41 17y ago

Working long hours is counterproductive. If you find yourself doing it, it's probably an indication there is something fundamentally wrong with your process. At my current job we have fully adopted agile programming and really respect the tenant that a developer should work no more (or less) than 40 hours a week (we also assume each day has about 2 hours in overhead, netting 6 hours of actual work time). It makes a huge difference. Leaving every day at 5 o'clock enhances everyone's mood, energy levels, ability to think, and the end result is we are far more productive during those 8 hours. Compared to when I worked at MS and 10 hour days were "normal" and 12 hour days were very common, I actually get a lot more done in an efficient, packed 8 hour day than a resentful, stressed out 12 hour day.

huherto 17y ago
yeah it is one of the principles in the agile manifesto. http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html "Agile processes promote sustainable development. The sponsors, developers, and users should be able to maintain a constant pace indefinitely."
strlen 17y ago
The problem with "everyone leaves at 5" is that everyone's forced to come in at 8 or 9. Some people work differently. I'd take a 50-60 hour work week with flexible hours (and ability to learn new technologies, improve existing infrastructure and initiate "venture" projects) over a 45 hour work week with fixed hours and a strict adherence to a development methodology. Perhaps that's why I am drawn almost solely to technology organizations and could never see myself working anywhere else (e.g., consulting or internal systems development).
- city41 17y ago
  True, I hear you. I can't speak for everybody. But I still think there is truth that efficient, sustainable hours can be more productive than long, stressful hours.
  - strlen 17y ago

praptak 17y ago

"Well, unless that same manager is right there with you, entertaining you with amusing anecdotes at 2 am, his words are worthless." His presence at the office at 2 am wouldn't change this fact either. Staying late oneself is one of the ways to pressure ones subordinates into long hours.

agentultra 17y ago

Are programmers freaking lemmings or something? We're people, damnit. We choose to work overtime for various reasons. Some of which include: putting dinner on the table, keeping our jobs, getting our foot in the door, and so forth. In my experience there are only 3 cases for working overtime: 1. You're a new, mediocre, or terrible programmer. You've been given three months to deliver a web site using a framework that practically holds your hand and wipes your ass and yet you still need more time. Everything seems hard. There's nothing you can do but brute-force your way to the finish line: stay up late and work that overtime to get it done and make up for all the time wasted googling, procrastinating, and debugging with a shotgun. 2. The suits messed up. They set a deadline without consulting you. They took on a contract with an incredibly short deadline because the business needs the money. They forgot to plan ahead for the big industry conference and they need something to show off to the other suits that will be there. 3. You've entered a culture of slavery. You just got your foot in the door at a big company. Unfortunately things have been sliding downhill and they never told you just how bad it has gotten during the interview process. Some people who stick to their guns will run for the hills, but you've got bigger responsibilities and cannot afford to take another month off job-searching. If you don't join in, they'll just make you look bad and the suits will fire you. For me it's simple: if I can't get it done in 8 hours a day, someone didn't consult me for an estimate and its their fault. I may choose to work the overtime to get it done, but it's not something I personally tolerate. I value my life more than my work and my free time is important. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do to put a roof over your family's head and dinner on the table. It's not as stupid as, "programmers love working overtime because they're passionate people!" I'm passionate about what I do. But I'm passionate about life. Programming is a part of that. Slaving away to make some other dude rich isn't.

Androsynth 17y ago
4. You own shares in an exciting young company. You own your overtime, not the other way around.
- jquery 17y ago
  Really? Let's do the math: Let's be very generous, you own 2% of the company, so you are entitled to 2% of the company's profits. Let's be generous and assume you contribute 20% of the company's productivity. Your influence on your 2% is equity is 20% x 2% = 0.4%. For this extra 0.4% compensation, you work 50% more hours. 50% divided by 0.4% is about 125x. So you are on the losing end of this deal by a ratio of 125 to 1. Your "screwed factor" is 125. Tweak the variables to find out your screwed factor.

InclinedPlane 17y ago

I find it amusing how many people work super long hours without thinking about the consequences. For one you are telling your employer how much less valuable you are, assuming you are on salary. Working 80 hours a week for the same amount of money effectively dilutes your hourly earnings, factoring in overtime, to 40% of its original value. If your boss called you into his office and told you he was switching you to hourly and giving you a 60% pay cut you would probably be pretty pissed, even though effectively it meant you made the same amount of money given your hours. For another, studies show that for software development people don't actually get more total work done working past about 50ish hours a week. All that other in-office time gets wasted by inefficiencies caused from over-work, lack of sleep, lack of concentration, and being forced to do tasks and errands at work that would normally be done at home (eating meals, relaxing, paying bills, etc.)

rjurney 17y ago

I started a new job a couple months ago after having worked double time for months at the last job. I tend to set tough/arbitrary deadlines for myself and then struggle to meet them. I throw myself into every job like its a startup and get very into it. I have a tendency to over-work. My new boss is aware of this. I get yelled at for working until 3AM. I am told to focus on a healthy balance. Everyone is encouraged to hit the office gym. I do so most days at 4PM, and it makes me more productive the rest of the day. Fruit for breakfast and vegetables are available for lunch daily. I work from home when I'm tired of sitting in my office chair. Since starting this job my resting heart rate is down from 95 to 72. And I'm more productive than I was at 80 hours a week and not taking care of myself. An unhealthy lifestyle is not efficient.

wenbert 17y ago

While many people here may disagree with this; this is very real in the Philippines. Maybe in your country, you are compensated for your efforts. But here, when you are working you never feel you are compensated enough. Seriously, the basic salary here isn't enough to raise a family. It isn't even enough to buy yourself a decent and healthy meal daily. That is why many programmers here, code themselves to death here. I have many friends who are very unhealthy because they have to work 2 or 3 jobs at the same time. Coffee and cigarettes seem to make them think faster (BTW, I haven't had a cigarette in over a month, so yay for me) or probably they do not have enough time for other pleasures aside from these. I myself used to work 9.6 hours (that's with no overtime) from Mondays to Fridays. When I got home I work an extra 6 hours on the internet. On weekends, I work at least 8 hours. And I still live with my mom because I still can't afford to live alone and have an internet connection. Working your mind off I think is as hard ass working physically. At least my brother, who is a nurse can sleep soundly at night without thinking about solving anything. He can rest his mind and his body. I on the other cannot rest my mind and therefore it is impossible for me to rest my body. I love to code that is why I do what I do. But sometimes, posts like these come up from time to time. Also, I think this is more of a problem with the entire system here. FYI: Nurses here are paid dirt shit. Not even above the minimum wage: about 240PHP a day and a Big Mac is about 150PHP. They are paid less than the floor cleaners in the hospital and the hospital treats them like shit. I can easily make 3 to 4 times from what he gets per month. He chose this career because there is an opportunity for him to go to another country where he gets paid what he deserves. He is really good at his job and he has a passion for it. Too bad the hospitals treat their nurses like disposable cups.

julsonl 17y ago
Oh I didn't know that was the case. I grew up and graduated in the Philippines with a Computer Science degree, but didn't manage to experience work there. Most of my friends work in HP, Canon and other multi-nationals, and entry-level work is paid dirt-cheap. Although it scales up considerably as you gain experience, though I've heard that it doesn't scale and pay as well as someone on the IT management track, which sucks. Maybe that is also the case in Cebu? I'm only familiar with Manila. Also, I've always had the impression that living with your mom does not carry the same stigma as here in the US. The only time people release their shackles from their parents is when they get married, even that doesn't occur quite often too. Why are you working over-time in the weekends anyway? Is it related to your Monday-to-Friday job?

alttab 17y ago

Ever try moving a man by pushing on his ankles? How about his head? Smart programmers use just enough effort in the right places to get the effect they want. Dumb programmers right a lot of code. The code you never write never breaks, and never needs fixing. I'm starting to realize that if no one else will give a shit - don't do it. Of course, this isn't a free pass to write shitty code. You don't have to be ineffective to take pride in your work.

avk 17y ago

I balance slavish dedication with passion. The more I care, the less I mind putting in more time because it really doesn't feel like work. That works for me, at least while I'm young and hungry for startups. My approach changes dramatically when I'm working for somebody else because it's hard to find something to care about on the same level as your passion projects. So the key seems to be passion. Have a lot of it? "Work" more because it's not really work. Have a little? Mind your hours and your rate.

nonononono 17y ago

Nope. During the day my coding is like driving a taxi - it's driving, but I don't really get a say in where I go, or when, and I have to make sure other people are happy with it. When I code at home, I'm a boy racer - hooning around doing cool stuff as and when I feel like it. If it ain't like that for you, you've either been exceptionally lucky in the job market, or you're being played and haven't even got the nouse to have noticed yet.

tlb 17y ago

Thank you to everyone who has worked hard either as a colleague or by building any of the products that make me happy. I'm genuinely grateful to all of you, from the folks at HP in the 70s who made wonderful calculators (my first exposure to great technology) up through today where Apple, Dropbox, Google, and many others are a large part of my daily life. Your hard work has made things that changed the course of history, pleased millions of users, and affected everyone on the planet in some way. Keep up the good work.

Jd 17y ago

I don't code for my boss. I code for myself.

silentium 17y ago

No that's why I quit !