5 ms·

Nobody punishes you for publishing in OA journals, what matters is the IF and JCR rank of the journal, not if it's OA or not.

by JorgeGT 10y ago

mattkrause 10y ago
If you find an OA journal with cachet matching Nature or Science, I would be happy to submit stuff there. As far as I know, there's nothing even particularly close. In other words, I doubt anyone is explicitly penalized for submitting to PLoS Biology instead of Journal of Neuroscience. However, there is an implicit penalty for not submitting to Nature/Science/Cell. [As an aside, I really hate the obsession with IF and all these other "quantitative" measures of research quality. They're all incredibly ad-hoc, someone easily game-able, and yet otherwise-smart people take them so seriously.]
- throwaway729 10y ago
  Yes, they are pointless and arbitrary metrics. Competition for positions in academia has gotten so bad that it doesn't matter. Like Google rejecting perfectly good candidates just because they can, but in Academia even south central Kansastucky state university has enough excellent applicants that arbitrary metrics do more good than harm.
- JorgeGT 10y ago
  At least in my country, I'm thankful for these quantitative measurements, that difficult corrupt practices: Oh, I assure you he's a great researcher, just not in any measurable way. He's my nephew you say? Well, that's not the point...
  - mattkrause 10y ago
    Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives? Particularly for early career people, I suspect most of these "quantitative" measurements are basically reflecting where and wtih whom you worked.
    - Fomite 10y ago
      There's also less nepotistic problems. For example, I've moved between different sides of the same overall field several times. That means, for any given reader of my CV, only about half the "impressive" papers read to them as impressive using most subjective measures.
    - JorgeGT 10y ago
      > Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives? They used to have this nice trick where you hired the son of your friend and your friend hired your son. But at least now there are some non-subjective requirements to be met before anyone can get admitted.
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    While this is important, in many fields their are cliques of related researchers (1) on the grants committees and (2) on the journal committees. These people know who works on which problems, so blind review is a farce. Also, the concept of IF being a proxy for rigorous review and work quality is weak at best. Just read a few pages of http://retractionwatch.com/ http://retractionwatch.com/
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  This seems like it would be fixable with a fairly small amount of money, relatively speaking: offer something like $250K for the most important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature to instead be published in an open-access journal. After all of the major papers for several months are published in open access journals and the most well-known journals are reduced to publishing only the dregs that are left, opinion could change quite quickly. Sustain this type of payment for a couple of years and I'd bet there would be a sizable number of other people publishing open-access, since to be published in Nature would imply that your paper wan't important enough to be offered the $250K reward. (Disclaimer: I used to work in this field at biomedcentral.com)
  - simonster 10y ago
    Or just make Science OA. Unlike Nature and Cell, it's published by a non-profit (the American Association for the Advancement of Science). In principle, the American government could just give them money to make everything freely accessible. Or the publishers could ask authors to pay publication fees with waivers for those unable to pay, like most OA journals. Since the goal of the AAAS is (at least theoretically) to publish papers and not to make a profit, the fees need not be much higher than other OA journals. Given the average Science paper probably costs something like $1 million to produce, I doubt the authors would balk at paying a few thousand to make their work accessible to everyone.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    If you had any kind of realistic measure to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" then the problem would be already solved, since all the evaluation criteria could look at that instead of the journal ratings. However, we do not - currently the only actually usable way to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" is simply asking "has this research been published in Nature?"
- Certhas 10y ago
  We don't necessarily need OA. Nature allows you to publish your papers on the arxiv. If all papers are on the arxiv, and with the journal, the negotiation position of the journals goes away.
hannob 10y ago
Impact factors and similar metrics are part of the problem. These are metrics that support flashy research, not good research. If anything the Impact Factor is a sign of sloppy research (there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction).
- JorgeGT 10y ago
  But it's not an easy problem. How do you grade from 0 to 10 good research from a candidate?
- dagw 10y ago
  there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction The higher the IF, the more likely it is the researcher trying to do something 'hard' and the more people will scrutinise the results. These two factors alone will lead to more retractions. Someone publishing something completely uninteresting in a journal no one reads will never be in a position to have to retract their paper, no matter how flawed, because no one will notice and no one will care.
Fomite 10y ago
But given the IF and ranks of OA journals, that's effectively the same thing. What you'd have to do is essentially give OA journals a handicap. Not to mention the opportunity cost associated with OA fees, which can add up if you're talking about lab startup.

Nobody punishes you for publishing in OA journals, what matters is the IF and JCR rank of the journal, not if it's OA or not.

by JorgeGT 10y ago

Nobody punishes you for publishing in OA journals, what matters is the IF and JCR rank of the journal, not if it's OA or not.

mattkrause 10y ago

If you find an OA journal with cachet matching Nature or Science, I would be happy to submit stuff there. As far as I know, there's nothing even particularly close. In other words, I doubt anyone is explicitly penalized for submitting to PLoS Biology instead of Journal of Neuroscience. However, there is an implicit penalty for not submitting to Nature/Science/Cell. [As an aside, I really hate the obsession with IF and all these other "quantitative" measures of research quality. They're all incredibly ad-hoc, someone easily game-able, and yet otherwise-smart people take them so seriously.]

throwaway729 10y ago
Yes, they are pointless and arbitrary metrics. Competition for positions in academia has gotten so bad that it doesn't matter. Like Google rejecting perfectly good candidates just because they can, but in Academia even south central Kansastucky state university has enough excellent applicants that arbitrary metrics do more good than harm.
JorgeGT 10y ago
At least in my country, I'm thankful for these quantitative measurements, that difficult corrupt practices: Oh, I assure you he's a great researcher, just not in any measurable way. He's my nephew you say? Well, that's not the point...
- mattkrause 10y ago
  Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives? Particularly for early career people, I suspect most of these "quantitative" measurements are basically reflecting where and wtih whom you worked.
  - Fomite 10y ago
    There's also less nepotistic problems. For example, I've moved between different sides of the same overall field several times. That means, for any given reader of my CV, only about half the "impressive" papers read to them as impressive using most subjective measures.
  - JorgeGT 10y ago
    > Couldn't you just require people to recuse themselves from hiring decisions involving relatives? They used to have this nice trick where you hired the son of your friend and your friend hired your son. But at least now there are some non-subjective requirements to be met before anyone can get admitted.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  While this is important, in many fields their are cliques of related researchers (1) on the grants committees and (2) on the journal committees. These people know who works on which problems, so blind review is a farce. Also, the concept of IF being a proxy for rigorous review and work quality is weak at best. Just read a few pages of http://retractionwatch.com/ http://retractionwatch.com/
alasdair_ 10y ago
This seems like it would be fixable with a fairly small amount of money, relatively speaking: offer something like $250K for the most important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature to instead be published in an open-access journal. After all of the major papers for several months are published in open access journals and the most well-known journals are reduced to publishing only the dregs that are left, opinion could change quite quickly. Sustain this type of payment for a couple of years and I'd bet there would be a sizable number of other people publishing open-access, since to be published in Nature would imply that your paper wan't important enough to be offered the $250K reward. (Disclaimer: I used to work in this field at biomedcentral.com)
- simonster 10y ago
  Or just make Science OA. Unlike Nature and Cell, it's published by a non-profit (the American Association for the Advancement of Science). In principle, the American government could just give them money to make everything freely accessible. Or the publishers could ask authors to pay publication fees with waivers for those unable to pay, like most OA journals. Since the goal of the AAAS is (at least theoretically) to publish papers and not to make a profit, the fees need not be much higher than other OA journals. Given the average Science paper probably costs something like $1 million to produce, I doubt the authors would balk at paying a few thousand to make their work accessible to everyone.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  If you had any kind of realistic measure to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" then the problem would be already solved, since all the evaluation criteria could look at that instead of the journal ratings. However, we do not - currently the only actually usable way to identify "important papers that would otherwise be published in Nature" is simply asking "has this research been published in Nature?"
Certhas 10y ago
We don't necessarily need OA. Nature allows you to publish your papers on the arxiv. If all papers are on the arxiv, and with the journal, the negotiation position of the journals goes away.

hannob 10y ago

Impact factors and similar metrics are part of the problem. These are metrics that support flashy research, not good research. If anything the Impact Factor is a sign of sloppy research (there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction).

JorgeGT 10y ago
But it's not an easy problem. How do you grade from 0 to 10 good research from a candidate?
dagw 10y ago
there's a lot of evidence for that, e.g. the higher the IF the more likely there's a retraction The higher the IF, the more likely it is the researcher trying to do something 'hard' and the more people will scrutinise the results. These two factors alone will lead to more retractions. Someone publishing something completely uninteresting in a journal no one reads will never be in a position to have to retract their paper, no matter how flawed, because no one will notice and no one will care.

Fomite 10y ago

But given the IF and ranks of OA journals, that's effectively the same thing. What you'd have to do is essentially give OA journals a handicap. Not to mention the opportunity cost associated with OA fees, which can add up if you're talking about lab startup.