4 ms·

Could you please provide links to official Toronto murder statistics that back up your claim?

by avtar 10y ago

nickff 10y ago
Probably not the previous poster's source, but seemingly reliable articles agree: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?page=all http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-som... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-death-sparks-call-to-end-gun-violence-solve-cases-1.3511708 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-dea...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
goatsi 10y ago
It would be illegal to collect that data. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history-of-race-based-statistics.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history... >Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year. >The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose. >Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.
- edblarney 10y ago
  There are some legal and political difficulties around the topic. But the Police are very aware of who is up to what. Cops in Toronto work with various groups all day, every day, they know what is going on. They know when it's 'Asian gang' vs. 'Bikers' vs. 'Somalis' vs. 'Mafia' etc.. Somalis have formed an ad-hoc kind of organized crime syndicate, maybe somewhat similar to the Sicilian folks, but with totally different attitude towards violence, different operating methods. I don't think they control a lot of turf directly, but they coordinate across the country. These things are evident even to many local residents. My folks live (lived) in Woodbridge, Ontario, which is the Italian area of Toronto, the cafe I used to go to was obviously a hangout and probably money laundering front for the Mafia. Networks are small you only have to know a few people and you get the notion pretty quick. I never felt afraid. Nor would if I were in in a similar situation owned by an Asian gang. But Somalis - I wouldn't go near a place like that. Different cultures = different behaviour. That's actually what 'diversity' is :) Finally ... I'm ashamed to say my 'source' on much of this is a 'distant relative', who is currently in jail, and 'very close' to organized crime.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    It's surreal, the reality of the situation is blatantly obvious, yet anyone in any sort of an official position that is privy to the facts would be well advised to keep their mouth shut if they'd like to keep their job. And simultaneously, most people simply can't fathom why "Trump supporters" tend to believe their government is not being truthful with citizens.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Why do the police explain all this stuff to your 'distant relative'? Or rather, do you also know what the police think from some source other than your 'distant relative'? Or is the 'distant relative' the only source you have? (I'm not sure what noun to use for your source there so I have stuck to matching your usage, my repeatedly using the quotes isn't sarcastic or anything like that)
    - edblarney 10y ago
      The police did not 'explain' this to my distant relative, rather, people in organized crime know a lot about criminality and police. And no, it wasn't he that explained to me how cops keep a tab, so much. I meet RCMP every once and a while. Moreover, I was well aware of how 'the case' went against my distant relative from the RCMP's perspective, it was all rather well laid out. Organized crime is very well understood by law enforcement.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote.
      - edblarney 10y ago
        "Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote." Do you need 'statistics' to understand the difference between Google and Facebook culture? Tunisian and Somali culture? Or maybe if you visit and know Googlers and FBers, or if you visit Tunisia and/or know a lot of Somalis, you start to get the idea? People in organized crime have jobs, just like those at Facebook. Their cultures are distinct, and generally known to those in the business, like cops, just as you would be familiar with FB culture if you visited or even knew just a few of them. There are no secrets there. Are HN readers so completely socially inept that they have no grasp of the cultural attributes of our society? I don't think so :) None of what I said is news to anybody. Hint: organized crime is usually run something like this - the Italian Mafia imports most of the hard drugs, they sell it to the Bikers who have regional networks, and the Bikers push it into the street gangs and small time dealer networks. That would be East Coast mostly. West Coast, I'm less familiar because it's Asian cartels and I don't know if they use their own networks or bikers or both. This is Canada mind you. Distribution territories for drugs are very tightly controlled, by various entities, and everybody in the business (including cops) knows who runs which territory, usually. The Somalis don't have any of these layers sorted out, yet there is heavy involvement in drugs, I think they bring it in and distribute themselves, to specific communities. Which probably causes tension & violence. I'm not sure. But I am sure wherever they go, whatever layer they are at, they are facing 'competition' from an incumbent, and disputes are settled through violence or the credible threat of it, and sometimes a buyout/payoff between more 'friendly' parties, I don't think the Somalis fit into the nicely tuned Mafia/Biker relationships. They don't do 'sit downs', as it were, in the classical sense. Again, this is all common knowledge in that line of work.

Could you please provide links to official Toronto murder statistics that back up your claim?

by avtar 10y ago

Could you please provide links to official Toronto murder statistics that back up your claim?

Probably not the previous poster's source, but seemingly reliable articles agree: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?page=all http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-som... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-death-sparks-call-to-end-gun-violence-solve-cases-1.3511708 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-dea...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

goatsi 10y ago

It would be illegal to collect that data. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history-of-race-based-statistics.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history... >Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year. >The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose. >Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.

edblarney 10y ago
There are some legal and political difficulties around the topic. But the Police are very aware of who is up to what. Cops in Toronto work with various groups all day, every day, they know what is going on. They know when it's 'Asian gang' vs. 'Bikers' vs. 'Somalis' vs. 'Mafia' etc.. Somalis have formed an ad-hoc kind of organized crime syndicate, maybe somewhat similar to the Sicilian folks, but with totally different attitude towards violence, different operating methods. I don't think they control a lot of turf directly, but they coordinate across the country. These things are evident even to many local residents. My folks live (lived) in Woodbridge, Ontario, which is the Italian area of Toronto, the cafe I used to go to was obviously a hangout and probably money laundering front for the Mafia. Networks are small you only have to know a few people and you get the notion pretty quick. I never felt afraid. Nor would if I were in in a similar situation owned by an Asian gang. But Somalis - I wouldn't go near a place like that. Different cultures = different behaviour. That's actually what 'diversity' is :) Finally ... I'm ashamed to say my 'source' on much of this is a 'distant relative', who is currently in jail, and 'very close' to organized crime.
- mistermann 10y ago
  It's surreal, the reality of the situation is blatantly obvious, yet anyone in any sort of an official position that is privy to the facts would be well advised to keep their mouth shut if they'd like to keep their job. And simultaneously, most people simply can't fathom why "Trump supporters" tend to believe their government is not being truthful with citizens.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Why do the police explain all this stuff to your 'distant relative'? Or rather, do you also know what the police think from some source other than your 'distant relative'? Or is the 'distant relative' the only source you have? (I'm not sure what noun to use for your source there so I have stuck to matching your usage, my repeatedly using the quotes isn't sarcastic or anything like that)
  - edblarney 10y ago
    The police did not 'explain' this to my distant relative, rather, people in organized crime know a lot about criminality and police. And no, it wasn't he that explained to me how cops keep a tab, so much. I meet RCMP every once and a while. Moreover, I was well aware of how 'the case' went against my distant relative from the RCMP's perspective, it was all rather well laid out. Organized crime is very well understood by law enforcement.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote.
    - edblarney 10y ago
      "Does the organized crime in Toronto have some sort of heroic devotion to statistics? If not, it seems we are discussing a third hand anecdote." Do you need 'statistics' to understand the difference between Google and Facebook culture? Tunisian and Somali culture? Or maybe if you visit and know Googlers and FBers, or if you visit Tunisia and/or know a lot of Somalis, you start to get the idea? People in organized crime have jobs, just like those at Facebook. Their cultures are distinct, and generally known to those in the business, like cops, just as you would be familiar with FB culture if you visited or even knew just a few of them. There are no secrets there. Are HN readers so completely socially inept that they have no grasp of the cultural attributes of our society? I don't think so :) None of what I said is news to anybody. Hint: organized crime is usually run something like this - the Italian Mafia imports most of the hard drugs, they sell it to the Bikers who have regional networks, and the Bikers push it into the street gangs and small time dealer networks. That would be East Coast mostly. West Coast, I'm less familiar because it's Asian cartels and I don't know if they use their own networks or bikers or both. This is Canada mind you. Distribution territories for drugs are very tightly controlled, by various entities, and everybody in the business (including cops) knows who runs which territory, usually. The Somalis don't have any of these layers sorted out, yet there is heavy involvement in drugs, I think they bring it in and distribute themselves, to specific communities. Which probably causes tension & violence. I'm not sure. But I am sure wherever they go, whatever layer they are at, they are facing 'competition' from an incumbent, and disputes are settled through violence or the credible threat of it, and sometimes a buyout/payoff between more 'friendly' parties, I don't think the Somalis fit into the nicely tuned Mafia/Biker relationships. They don't do 'sit downs', as it were, in the classical sense. Again, this is all common knowledge in that line of work.