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Doctors adhere to the Hippocratic Oath. Nevertheless doctors worked in concentration camps, were experimenting on humans, work as executioners currently in the

Doctors adhere to the Hippocratic Oath. Nevertheless doctors worked in concentration camps, were experimenting on humans, work as executioners currently in the US, work and worked in torture chambers, sell their patients to big pharma for Rolex watches and on and on and on. This pledge may be a statement but is practically worth nothing.

kevinburke 10y ago
People take cues and behave based on the norms and behavior of those around them. If I know and like person X, and they exhibit unethical behavior Y, I may conclude that Y can't be that bad because I know X and they are not bad. On the flip side if leaders in my industry or community are declaring "it's unacceptable to participate in this behavior and I will resign rather than be complicit in it" it's more likely that I'll take an ethical stance. Here are 1000+ people taking a public pledge to quit their jobs if they're asked to do unethical things. That might inspire others who are waffling, or faced with an unethical decision, to find a similar backbone.
- _Codemonkeyism 10y ago
  The problem is that you only need say 10 people or less out of one million to make it happen. I respect people giving that pledge, would give it myself, but the practical impact is 0. Each day I walk by a large Bayer building who bought Monsanto who do ethical questionable things. Still each day hundreds of people enter that building. There is never a shortage of people who will do whatever they are questioned to do if only they can feed their family. There will always be someone who builds that Muslim database. There is always someone who can rationalize their doings.
  - kevinburke 10y ago
    I think you are underestimating the number of people who need to comply to enable human rights abuses on a large scale.
cmondude 10y ago
Doctor here. Never took the Hipp Oath and there's absolutely nothing binding about it. Regardless, most medical schools in the US are using the Declaration of Geneva in place of the Hippocratic Oath, since the former is more reasonable. Also not binding in any way. Here's the philosophy I follow: do the best I can for the person in the bed and his/her family.
- _Codemonkeyism 10y ago
  Yes that was the reason I wrote 'adhere' not take - and it's interesting that this fact is not widely known in the public (probably due to TV dramas). The best thing about the Hippocratic Oath as a social construct is it makes everyone trust doctors (still rank high in every survey on trust) while doctors are just the same as everyone else. So the cynic in me thinks this is the reason so many people push for something similar in IT.
haldean 10y ago
> work as executioners currently in the US [citation needed]
- _Codemonkeyism 10y ago
  Although I'm a fan of 'Google it yourself' here is the first result from Google https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_of_medical_professionals_in_American_executions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_of_medical_profe... I'm sure with a little effort you can find better ones should you be interested in that topic.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I've never been quite sure that the ethical question here is as firmly settled as the organizations cited first in that article consider it to be. Is it ethical to refuse to participate in lethal injection, knowing that the result will be an execution instead performed by electric chair, or gas chamber, or hanging, or firing squad? Each of these methods is employed as an alternative to lethal injection by at least one US state, and I don't think any of them can reasonably be considered equally humane. Is it ethical to refuse participation knowing that the likely outcome is replacement of lethal injection with a less humane method of execution, as The Atlantic suggests [1] may already be underway? The gas chamber and the electric chair, in particular, amount to death by torture. Is it ethical to consign someone to such a fate in order to keep one's own hands clean? [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/gas-chambers-electric-chairs-and-firing-squads/387706/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/gas-cham...
    - AlexandrB 10y ago
      Lethal injection is not humane[1]. There's evidence that the person being executed suffers tremendously but can't express it due to the use of paralytics as part of the "cocktail". I'd rather get the guillotine. [1] http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/lethal-injection http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/leth...
harigov 10y ago
Agreed, but we need to start somewhere. Some of those pledges that doctors take ended up being part of a law so there is at least some hope. Also, this sort of helps people on the fence some clarity about whether what they are doing is immoral. Even if it affects 1% of them, that's still something.

kevinburke 10y ago

People take cues and behave based on the norms and behavior of those around them. If I know and like person X, and they exhibit unethical behavior Y, I may conclude that Y can't be that bad because I know X and they are not bad. On the flip side if leaders in my industry or community are declaring "it's unacceptable to participate in this behavior and I will resign rather than be complicit in it" it's more likely that I'll take an ethical stance. Here are 1000+ people taking a public pledge to quit their jobs if they're asked to do unethical things. That might inspire others who are waffling, or faced with an unethical decision, to find a similar backbone.

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
The problem is that you only need say 10 people or less out of one million to make it happen. I respect people giving that pledge, would give it myself, but the practical impact is 0. Each day I walk by a large Bayer building who bought Monsanto who do ethical questionable things. Still each day hundreds of people enter that building. There is never a shortage of people who will do whatever they are questioned to do if only they can feed their family. There will always be someone who builds that Muslim database. There is always someone who can rationalize their doings.
- kevinburke 10y ago
  I think you are underestimating the number of people who need to comply to enable human rights abuses on a large scale.

cmondude 10y ago

Doctor here. Never took the Hipp Oath and there's absolutely nothing binding about it. Regardless, most medical schools in the US are using the Declaration of Geneva in place of the Hippocratic Oath, since the former is more reasonable. Also not binding in any way. Here's the philosophy I follow: do the best I can for the person in the bed and his/her family.

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
Yes that was the reason I wrote 'adhere' not take - and it's interesting that this fact is not widely known in the public (probably due to TV dramas). The best thing about the Hippocratic Oath as a social construct is it makes everyone trust doctors (still rank high in every survey on trust) while doctors are just the same as everyone else. So the cynic in me thinks this is the reason so many people push for something similar in IT.

haldean 10y ago

> work as executioners currently in the US [citation needed]

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
Although I'm a fan of 'Google it yourself' here is the first result from Google https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_of_medical_professionals_in_American_executions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_of_medical_profe... I'm sure with a little effort you can find better ones should you be interested in that topic.
- throwanem 10y ago
  I've never been quite sure that the ethical question here is as firmly settled as the organizations cited first in that article consider it to be. Is it ethical to refuse to participate in lethal injection, knowing that the result will be an execution instead performed by electric chair, or gas chamber, or hanging, or firing squad? Each of these methods is employed as an alternative to lethal injection by at least one US state, and I don't think any of them can reasonably be considered equally humane. Is it ethical to refuse participation knowing that the likely outcome is replacement of lethal injection with a less humane method of execution, as The Atlantic suggests [1] may already be underway? The gas chamber and the electric chair, in particular, amount to death by torture. Is it ethical to consign someone to such a fate in order to keep one's own hands clean? [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/gas-chambers-electric-chairs-and-firing-squads/387706/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/gas-cham...
  - AlexandrB 10y ago
    Lethal injection is not humane[1]. There's evidence that the person being executed suffers tremendously but can't express it due to the use of paralytics as part of the "cocktail". I'd rather get the guillotine. [1] http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/lethal-injection http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/leth...

harigov 10y ago

Agreed, but we need to start somewhere. Some of those pledges that doctors take ended up being part of a law so there is at least some hope. Also, this sort of helps people on the fence some clarity about whether what they are doing is immoral. Even if it affects 1% of them, that's still something.