5 ms·

What about a database of people from countries with high propensity for radicalization, for example Tunisia, or Somalia? Paradox: Tunisia is perhaps the most p

What about a database of people from countries with high propensity for radicalization, for example Tunisia, or Somalia? Paradox: Tunisia is perhaps the most progressive of all the M/E Muslim countries, and yet they are the #1 M/E country in terms of Jihadis. They are overwhelmingly the greatest per/capita Jihadi producers in the world. By far. Tunisia is very small. Networks are very small. 95% chance that a young male Tunisian knows someone off to fight Jihad. This is very significant. Somalia - is a stateless war-zone, people coming from their are massively over-represented in other kinds of crimes. Wherever there is a 'new' Somalian community, the crime (drugs and related) offenses are off the charts with over-representation. In Toronto - a big slice of the 'violent murder' pie is committed by Somalis - and they are near 0% of the actual population. Some social workers have observed that they simply have absolutely no respect for authority - it's meaningless to many of them. There is an overrepresentation among Somalis in terms of 'domestic' (i.e. host nation) violence, that's possibly 'terror' related. Those are both good examples because it shows you how young men from completely different places, are radicalized for completely different reasons, and are associated with completely different kinds of violent people - and their nationality (read: culture) is definitely a correlating (or even predictive factor). It's a moot point anyhow. The FBI has a database. You're probably in it. There's a tag on your file that might indicate the likelihood you'll be radicalized. We have to be really quite careful of this kind of stuff, frankly, I'm more concerned about the 'populist anti-muslim sentiment' that might arise, as opposed to any kind of actual 'database' of muslims. Anyhow - it's all moot. There will be no DB of Muslims.

avtar 10y ago
Could you please provide links to official Toronto murder statistics that back up your claim?
- nickff 10y ago
  Probably not the previous poster's source, but seemingly reliable articles agree: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?page=all http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-som... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-death-sparks-call-to-end-gun-violence-solve-cases-1.3511708 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-dea...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- goatsi 10y ago
  It would be illegal to collect that data. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history-of-race-based-statistics.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history... >Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year. >The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose. >Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    There are some legal and political difficulties around the topic. But the Police are very aware of who is up to what. Cops in Toronto work with various groups all day, every day, they know what is going on. They know when it's 'Asian gang' vs. 'Bikers' vs. 'Somalis' vs. 'Mafia' etc.. Somalis have formed an ad-hoc kind of organized crime syndicate, maybe somewhat similar to the Sicilian folks, but with totally different attitude towards violence, different operating methods. I don't think they control a lot of turf directly, but they coordinate across the country. These things are evident even to many local residents. My folks live (lived) in Woodbridge, Ontario, which is the Italian area of Toronto, the cafe I used to go to was obviously a hangout and probably money laundering front for the Mafia. Networks are small you only have to know a few people and you get the notion pretty quick. I never felt afraid. Nor would if I were in in a similar situation owned by an Asian gang. But Somalis - I wouldn't go near a place like that. Different cultures = different behaviour. That's actually what 'diversity' is :) Finally ... I'm ashamed to say my 'source' on much of this is a 'distant relative', who is currently in jail, and 'very close' to organized crime.
    - mistermann 10y ago
steve_b 10y ago
"Some social workers have observed that they simply have absolutely no respect for authority - it's meaningless to many of them" Sounds like a bunch of Richard Feynmans.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Indeed, not to mention Richard's penchant for organized crime.
  - steve_b 10y ago
    Unfortunately, cause this is the internet, I cant tell if your joking. If not, source?
    - internaut 10y ago
      He had a hobby of cracking safes. Not as a thief I think.
    - jaredsohn 10y ago
      Surely, he's joking about Mr. Feynman. (context: https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041 https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Cha...)
zouhair 10y ago
Tunisia is not in the Middle-East.
- edblarney 10y ago
  It's de-facto a M/E country. The North African countries are Arabic, Muslim, and are geopolitically part of the Arabic sphere of influence which is de-facto the same thing as middle east. 'North Africa' I find to be not descriptive. The best term would be 'Maghreb' - but nobody knows what that means. M/E is an appropriate geopolitical designation.
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    If you don't say Maghreb when you mean Maghreb, how are people ever going to learn what Maghreb means?
    - edblarney 10y ago
      It's not a word used in the Anglo-sphere and likely never will be.
  - zouhair 10y ago
    No it is not. At all. Tunisia has much common things with Italy than with Oman.
  - Dr0Dre 10y ago
    > The North African countries are Arabic Wrong my friend. Morocco and Algeria for example have more than 50% ethnic berbers [0]. Saying it's part of the middle east show your lack of knowledge of the region and its distinct culture. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers
    - edblarney 10y ago
      Morocco and Algeria are definitely Arabic countries. They speak Arabic officially, they belong to the 'Arab league', they are Muslim (because of Arabic colonialization). I'm 100% aware of what the Berbers are, save your insults for Reddit. They were colonized by Arabs 1000 years ago, and they fit quite fundamentally into the Arab sphere of influence. Obviously, they are all different, and 'more different' the further you get from the Gulf ... but most Arab countries are in fact, quite different as well. Geopolitically - they are basically M/E countries. Our approach to them has nothing to do with 'the rest of Africa' and everything to do with the status of other M/E countries.
jnbiche 10y ago
> I'm more concerned about the 'populist anti-muslim sentiment' that might arise, "...that might arise"? What have we been seeing the last year, when the winning presidential candidate proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US, and as recently as a few weeks ago (and well after the election) said with respect to a Muslim registry that "he would implement that [a registry], absolutely" [1]. Meanwhile, various of his surrogates have in recent days (all after the election) floated the idea that the Japanese internment supreme court decision (never struck down!) could be used to justify this registry. And go check out his core followers at any of the usual hangouts, like Reddit and Breibart, and you'll hear much, much more extreme views on this issue. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/20/donald-trump-says-hed-absolutely-require-muslims-to-register/ http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/20/donal...
- 67726e 10y ago
  > proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US I was actually at the rally when he announced this. Trump wants a freeze on immigration from countries that are actively producing a large number of jihadis which, surprise, happens to be predominantly Muslim countries. The premise being, they need more scrutiny and we need time to implement such. Of course I'm sure this whole time he's just been pulling from George W's playbook, acting like an "every guy" who doesn't use big words and wants to appeal to populism.
  - Locke1689 10y ago
    This is just classic FUD. The probability of being harmed in a terrorist attack is tiny and the probability of any given immigrant being a part of a terrorist attack is also tiny. This is a mountain out of a mole hill. You'd be better off eating less junk food and paying more attention while driving rather than concern yourself with these edge cases.
    - 67726e 10y ago
      I mean, Europe has been having issues with migrants. It's not unreasonable to avoid a known issue. America has been running quota and limits anyway.
Raed667 10y ago
As a Tunisian I would like to add a comment: 1- Yes, there is a number of Tunisians that went to Syria. As you have said per/capita it is a large number. There are around 10 Million Tunisians and from 3000 to 8000 fighting in Syria (depending on the source). 2- This is due to several factors: Post-revolution politics, poverty, mistrust in the state institutions and the police, and -most importantly- a previous government that is (allegedly) complicit. 3- There are no official numbers, the Tunisian government said that they have no idea on the exact number. Some Syrian/Turkish parties gave estimates (the numbers you read in the press) but they are not to be trusted to be objective or impartial. 4- If this "database" checks for first and second degree connections, then the entire country would be flagged.
- edblarney 10y ago
  Thanks for your comment. And to be clear - I'm not 'blaming' anyone, I spent some time in Tunisia a couple of years ago. I'm just indicating that 'cultures' and 'centers of activity' and 'relationships' are important. So 'I hear you' on that. Still though - Tunisians tend to be great people, much more open minded and educated than, for example Algerians or Moroccans ... and the Tunisian government is not nearly as bad as others ... so it's still a paradox :) Though it could actually be literacy, access to information, and basic financing which enables them to head out to war ... ironically. Certainly, Al Queda members were actually quite well educated, way more so than the average street Arab.
  - Raed667 10y ago
    I was just adding some details to the valid points you have mentioned. And indeed, I personally don't understand that paradox as well.
- Mz 10y ago
  Sadly, HN seems to be not nearly as interested in hearing about things actually going on outside the US. I posted this earlier this morning and it has not a single upvote (at this time): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13186741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13186741 I do what I can to post international news and I try hard to mot make it just about negative things going on out in the larger world. Sometimes, those stories do get some small attention, but there is a serious diversity issue on many discussion boards in terms of what kinds of topics get attention, if that makes sense. And I don't know if I am making myself clear, but I mean to say that there is a lot of prejudice, basically, often rooted in ignorance (and that ignorance is to some degree happenstance, but is also to some degree by choice). So thank you for commenting.
briholt 10y ago
You're making the mistake of trying to ground the discussion in reality. This has nothing to do with any actual real world outcomes. The point is that if I pretend that there could be a Muslim database, I can feel self-righteous in opposing it.
dimino 10y ago
> The FBI has a database. You're probably in it. The question someone might ask here next is, "Sure, but who built it?" If software engineers had a guild, we could, if this were deemed such an egregious offense (not saying it is, just following the logic of the submission), kick those people out of the guild.
threatofrain 10y ago
Why wouldn't there be a database of Muslims? It's so rational for any powerful group to have a massive database. It's just that instead of having a DB of Muslims, you'd have a DB of citizens, of which Islam would be one of many fields. Perhaps this is what you meant by the FBI database. Also, having a database of many kinds of information is rational because it doesn't have the same fear factor as a database of Jews, and yet it has that same power -- if the political winds should ever blow in that direction.
__derek__ 10y ago
> What about a database of people from countries with high propensity for radicalization, for example Tunisia, or Somalia? What about another for states and counties? Where was Dylann Roof radicalized?
CN7R 10y ago
Tunisia might be the most progressive country in the MENA region -- guaranteeing gender equality and women's rights -- but all that happened under the former president, Habib Bourguiba. The ousted president, Ben Ali, did very little for progressivism; under his reign, he enacted neoliberal economic reforms that while may have made the country wealthier as a whole, lessened living standards for the average Tunisian. Economic growth masks the fact that buying food is an issue, the education system is inept, and unemployment levels are at all time highs. The people's discontent with the secular government can be seen in the political polarization of the country: in recent elections, the Ennahada party -- Islamist in belief -- captured half of Parliamentary seats; their voter base all came from the rural inner region of Tunisia. When you have a group of disillusioned youth, combined with a pervalent Islam sentiment in the country, I don't think the popularity of jihad would be a paradox.

avtar 10y ago

Could you please provide links to official Toronto murder statistics that back up your claim?

nickff 10y ago
Probably not the previous poster's source, but seemingly reliable articles agree: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?page=all http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-som... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-death-sparks-call-to-end-gun-violence-solve-cases-1.3511708 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/somali-canadian-s-dea...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
goatsi 10y ago
It would be illegal to collect that data. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history-of-race-based-statistics.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/08/17/a-thorny-history... >Fantino, then head of 31 Division, told North York’s committee on community, race and ethnic relations that, while blacks made up 6 per cent of the Jane-Finch population, they accounted for 82 per cent of robberies and muggings, 55 per cent of purse-snatchings and 51 per cent of drug offences in the previous year. >The Star’s Royson James was apparently the only reporter present. He duly filed a story that appeared on the next day’s front page. All hell broke loose. >Police in Ontario were forbidden to compile race-based crime statistics. Solicitor-General Joan Smith, responsible for law enforcement in the province, castigated Fantino for collecting and releasing data that “accomplishes nothing useful.” Black activist groups and social agencies condemned Fantino for fueling existing prejudices. Police chief Jack Marks insisted the force did not keep race stats.
- edblarney 10y ago
  There are some legal and political difficulties around the topic. But the Police are very aware of who is up to what. Cops in Toronto work with various groups all day, every day, they know what is going on. They know when it's 'Asian gang' vs. 'Bikers' vs. 'Somalis' vs. 'Mafia' etc.. Somalis have formed an ad-hoc kind of organized crime syndicate, maybe somewhat similar to the Sicilian folks, but with totally different attitude towards violence, different operating methods. I don't think they control a lot of turf directly, but they coordinate across the country. These things are evident even to many local residents. My folks live (lived) in Woodbridge, Ontario, which is the Italian area of Toronto, the cafe I used to go to was obviously a hangout and probably money laundering front for the Mafia. Networks are small you only have to know a few people and you get the notion pretty quick. I never felt afraid. Nor would if I were in in a similar situation owned by an Asian gang. But Somalis - I wouldn't go near a place like that. Different cultures = different behaviour. That's actually what 'diversity' is :) Finally ... I'm ashamed to say my 'source' on much of this is a 'distant relative', who is currently in jail, and 'very close' to organized crime.
  - mistermann 10y ago

steve_b 10y ago

"Some social workers have observed that they simply have absolutely no respect for authority - it's meaningless to many of them" Sounds like a bunch of Richard Feynmans.

mistermann 10y ago
Indeed, not to mention Richard's penchant for organized crime.
- steve_b 10y ago
  Unfortunately, cause this is the internet, I cant tell if your joking. If not, source?
  - internaut 10y ago
    He had a hobby of cracking safes. Not as a thief I think.
  - jaredsohn 10y ago
    Surely, he's joking about Mr. Feynman. (context: https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041 https://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Cha...)

zouhair 10y ago

Tunisia is not in the Middle-East.

edblarney 10y ago
It's de-facto a M/E country. The North African countries are Arabic, Muslim, and are geopolitically part of the Arabic sphere of influence which is de-facto the same thing as middle east. 'North Africa' I find to be not descriptive. The best term would be 'Maghreb' - but nobody knows what that means. M/E is an appropriate geopolitical designation.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  If you don't say Maghreb when you mean Maghreb, how are people ever going to learn what Maghreb means?
  - edblarney 10y ago
    It's not a word used in the Anglo-sphere and likely never will be.
- zouhair 10y ago
  No it is not. At all. Tunisia has much common things with Italy than with Oman.
- Dr0Dre 10y ago
  > The North African countries are Arabic Wrong my friend. Morocco and Algeria for example have more than 50% ethnic berbers [0]. Saying it's part of the middle east show your lack of knowledge of the region and its distinct culture. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Morocco and Algeria are definitely Arabic countries. They speak Arabic officially, they belong to the 'Arab league', they are Muslim (because of Arabic colonialization). I'm 100% aware of what the Berbers are, save your insults for Reddit. They were colonized by Arabs 1000 years ago, and they fit quite fundamentally into the Arab sphere of influence. Obviously, they are all different, and 'more different' the further you get from the Gulf ... but most Arab countries are in fact, quite different as well. Geopolitically - they are basically M/E countries. Our approach to them has nothing to do with 'the rest of Africa' and everything to do with the status of other M/E countries.

jnbiche 10y ago

> I'm more concerned about the 'populist anti-muslim sentiment' that might arise, "...that might arise"? What have we been seeing the last year, when the winning presidential candidate proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US, and as recently as a few weeks ago (and well after the election) said with respect to a Muslim registry that "he would implement that [a registry], absolutely" [1]. Meanwhile, various of his surrogates have in recent days (all after the election) floated the idea that the Japanese internment supreme court decision (never struck down!) could be used to justify this registry. And go check out his core followers at any of the usual hangouts, like Reddit and Breibart, and you'll hear much, much more extreme views on this issue. 1. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/20/donald-trump-says-hed-absolutely-require-muslims-to-register/ http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/20/donal...

67726e 10y ago
> proposed banning Muslims from entry to the US I was actually at the rally when he announced this. Trump wants a freeze on immigration from countries that are actively producing a large number of jihadis which, surprise, happens to be predominantly Muslim countries. The premise being, they need more scrutiny and we need time to implement such. Of course I'm sure this whole time he's just been pulling from George W's playbook, acting like an "every guy" who doesn't use big words and wants to appeal to populism.
- Locke1689 10y ago
  This is just classic FUD. The probability of being harmed in a terrorist attack is tiny and the probability of any given immigrant being a part of a terrorist attack is also tiny. This is a mountain out of a mole hill. You'd be better off eating less junk food and paying more attention while driving rather than concern yourself with these edge cases.
  - 67726e 10y ago
    I mean, Europe has been having issues with migrants. It's not unreasonable to avoid a known issue. America has been running quota and limits anyway.

Raed667 10y ago

As a Tunisian I would like to add a comment: 1- Yes, there is a number of Tunisians that went to Syria. As you have said per/capita it is a large number. There are around 10 Million Tunisians and from 3000 to 8000 fighting in Syria (depending on the source). 2- This is due to several factors: Post-revolution politics, poverty, mistrust in the state institutions and the police, and -most importantly- a previous government that is (allegedly) complicit. 3- There are no official numbers, the Tunisian government said that they have no idea on the exact number. Some Syrian/Turkish parties gave estimates (the numbers you read in the press) but they are not to be trusted to be objective or impartial. 4- If this "database" checks for first and second degree connections, then the entire country would be flagged.

edblarney 10y ago
Thanks for your comment. And to be clear - I'm not 'blaming' anyone, I spent some time in Tunisia a couple of years ago. I'm just indicating that 'cultures' and 'centers of activity' and 'relationships' are important. So 'I hear you' on that. Still though - Tunisians tend to be great people, much more open minded and educated than, for example Algerians or Moroccans ... and the Tunisian government is not nearly as bad as others ... so it's still a paradox :) Though it could actually be literacy, access to information, and basic financing which enables them to head out to war ... ironically. Certainly, Al Queda members were actually quite well educated, way more so than the average street Arab.
- Raed667 10y ago
  I was just adding some details to the valid points you have mentioned. And indeed, I personally don't understand that paradox as well.
Mz 10y ago
Sadly, HN seems to be not nearly as interested in hearing about things actually going on outside the US. I posted this earlier this morning and it has not a single upvote (at this time): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13186741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13186741 I do what I can to post international news and I try hard to mot make it just about negative things going on out in the larger world. Sometimes, those stories do get some small attention, but there is a serious diversity issue on many discussion boards in terms of what kinds of topics get attention, if that makes sense. And I don't know if I am making myself clear, but I mean to say that there is a lot of prejudice, basically, often rooted in ignorance (and that ignorance is to some degree happenstance, but is also to some degree by choice). So thank you for commenting.

briholt 10y ago

You're making the mistake of trying to ground the discussion in reality. This has nothing to do with any actual real world outcomes. The point is that if I pretend that there could be a Muslim database, I can feel self-righteous in opposing it.

dimino 10y ago

> The FBI has a database. You're probably in it. The question someone might ask here next is, "Sure, but who built it?" If software engineers had a guild, we could, if this were deemed such an egregious offense (not saying it is, just following the logic of the submission), kick those people out of the guild.

threatofrain 10y ago

Why wouldn't there be a database of Muslims? It's so rational for any powerful group to have a massive database. It's just that instead of having a DB of Muslims, you'd have a DB of citizens, of which Islam would be one of many fields. Perhaps this is what you meant by the FBI database. Also, having a database of many kinds of information is rational because it doesn't have the same fear factor as a database of Jews, and yet it has that same power -- if the political winds should ever blow in that direction.

__derek__ 10y ago

> What about a database of people from countries with high propensity for radicalization, for example Tunisia, or Somalia? What about another for states and counties? Where was Dylann Roof radicalized?

CN7R 10y ago

Tunisia might be the most progressive country in the MENA region -- guaranteeing gender equality and women's rights -- but all that happened under the former president, Habib Bourguiba. The ousted president, Ben Ali, did very little for progressivism; under his reign, he enacted neoliberal economic reforms that while may have made the country wealthier as a whole, lessened living standards for the average Tunisian. Economic growth masks the fact that buying food is an issue, the education system is inept, and unemployment levels are at all time highs. The people's discontent with the secular government can be seen in the political polarization of the country: in recent elections, the Ennahada party -- Islamist in belief -- captured half of Parliamentary seats; their voter base all came from the rural inner region of Tunisia. When you have a group of disillusioned youth, combined with a pervalent Islam sentiment in the country, I don't think the popularity of jihad would be a paradox.