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Interesting read, but I can't imagine how anyone could convince Google and Facebook to change their business models at this stage unless the market truly revolt

Interesting read, but I can't imagine how anyone could convince Google and Facebook to change their business models at this stage unless the market truly revolted and started moving away from their products due to privacy issues. I think change is much more likely to happen through disruption (which perhaps is the other side of his ideas, coming up with business models that are more privacy-friendly). I think security and privacy are a lot more important to people than Facebook and Google's market share are thought to indicate. In 2017 they will be real selling points for a product if it can match the UX and features of the incumbents. That is the hard part -- particularly given that good UX for secure products has a long way to go. I don't believe it's impossible, but it requires a mindset shift in the industry. "Give an extra key to your friend/family member in case you lock yourself out" is an idea that's been with us a lot longer than "contact customer support." It just isn't how the tech industry has ever worked.

NoGravitas 10y ago
Matching the UX and features is only a part of it. Overcoming network effects are possibly an even bigger one.
- apatters 10y ago
  And even if you do beat their network effects, they will throw as much cash at you as it takes to buy you out... sigh.
idlewords 10y ago
I think employee revolt is a much more promising avenue of attack than market revolt. Many of the people working at Google and Facebook are deeply uneasy about what the data they've collected can be used for. Watching their CEO (or COO) march meekly into Trump tower does not alleviate those anxieties.
- suls 10y ago
  I suppose however it is hard to revolt against the hand that feeds you more than 2x market rate. "Everyone has their price" sort of thing ..
  - idlewords 10y ago
    That works both ways, though. Everyone also has an ethical limit, and that is a powerful point of leverage, especially in an industry where good engineers are hard to find and quick to find jobs.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    It's very hard to be the only person promising to revolt, but it gets easier the more people that do it. What's the threshold percentage of Google or Facebook's workforce that would need to commit themselves before it would not only be safe to join them, but their demands would need to be reckoned with by management? I don't know (I'm really asking) but my gut says it's nowhere close to 51%.
    - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
      The problem is how do you coordinate that? It's like forming a union in secret... Under the king of surveillance. How do you even get two people together, when talking to the wrong one will probably get you fired? I also think many of those most likely to have privacy issues with Google at this point have moved on, it's not like this is a new concern with Google. I suspect a lot of people still at Google have embraced the post-privacy mindset I've seen suggested and even endorsed by a variety of futurists.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I think there are lots of valid questions to be asked about any ambitious project and it's not wrong to ask them. But I'm focused right now on my question, the one I just asked. What do we think the threshold is? What's the inflection point?
        10y ago
kijin 10y ago
IMO there are only two companies in the world right now that could possibly compete against Google and Facebook on that kind of scale but with a different, more privacy-respecting business model. Unfortunately, the one in Cupertino only takes a lukewarm stance on privacy despite being in an excellent position to make it a distinguishing feature of their platform; and the one in Redmond with its always-calling-home operating system has just blown a ton of goodwill that it had accumulated over the last few years.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  Microsoft unfortunately learned some of the right lessons of how Google beat them... And some of the wrong ones too. But as their privacy fiascos aren't central to their business (unlike where ads is 99% of Google's), my hope is they can still do an about face on privacy.
- potatolicious 10y ago
  > "the one in Cupertino only takes a lukewarm stance on privacy" Genuinely curious - but how so? My observation of Apple so far is that they've taken a remarkably strong privacy stance. Not maintaining logs of iMessage, keeping nearly all personal data on-device, ensuring analytics do not leak personal data, going above and beyond to ensure their customers' devices are strongly encrypted (and exceptionally difficult to break, even for government entities)... And they've made a point of publicizing this during their keynotes, too, so much of this isn't necessarily even under-the-hood details that only us nerds know about.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    Indeed. They stared down the FBI with engineers threatening to quit and/or go to jail rather than compromising their users' phones. That had the enormous risk of making them unpalatable to the conservative half of the nation. Compare to yahoo, where they apparently handed out data to anyone asking, and not a single person considered it m0re important than their paycheck.
    - 10y ago

NoGravitas 10y ago

Matching the UX and features is only a part of it. Overcoming network effects are possibly an even bigger one.

apatters 10y ago
And even if you do beat their network effects, they will throw as much cash at you as it takes to buy you out... sigh.

idlewords 10y ago

I think employee revolt is a much more promising avenue of attack than market revolt. Many of the people working at Google and Facebook are deeply uneasy about what the data they've collected can be used for. Watching their CEO (or COO) march meekly into Trump tower does not alleviate those anxieties.

suls 10y ago
I suppose however it is hard to revolt against the hand that feeds you more than 2x market rate. "Everyone has their price" sort of thing ..
- idlewords 10y ago
  That works both ways, though. Everyone also has an ethical limit, and that is a powerful point of leverage, especially in an industry where good engineers are hard to find and quick to find jobs.
- tptacek 10y ago
  It's very hard to be the only person promising to revolt, but it gets easier the more people that do it. What's the threshold percentage of Google or Facebook's workforce that would need to commit themselves before it would not only be safe to join them, but their demands would need to be reckoned with by management? I don't know (I'm really asking) but my gut says it's nowhere close to 51%.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    The problem is how do you coordinate that? It's like forming a union in secret... Under the king of surveillance. How do you even get two people together, when talking to the wrong one will probably get you fired? I also think many of those most likely to have privacy issues with Google at this point have moved on, it's not like this is a new concern with Google. I suspect a lot of people still at Google have embraced the post-privacy mindset I've seen suggested and even endorsed by a variety of futurists.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I think there are lots of valid questions to be asked about any ambitious project and it's not wrong to ask them. But I'm focused right now on my question, the one I just asked. What do we think the threshold is? What's the inflection point?
      - 10y ago

kijin 10y ago

IMO there are only two companies in the world right now that could possibly compete against Google and Facebook on that kind of scale but with a different, more privacy-respecting business model. Unfortunately, the one in Cupertino only takes a lukewarm stance on privacy despite being in an excellent position to make it a distinguishing feature of their platform; and the one in Redmond with its always-calling-home operating system has just blown a ton of goodwill that it had accumulated over the last few years.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
Microsoft unfortunately learned some of the right lessons of how Google beat them... And some of the wrong ones too. But as their privacy fiascos aren't central to their business (unlike where ads is 99% of Google's), my hope is they can still do an about face on privacy.
potatolicious 10y ago
> "the one in Cupertino only takes a lukewarm stance on privacy" Genuinely curious - but how so? My observation of Apple so far is that they've taken a remarkably strong privacy stance. Not maintaining logs of iMessage, keeping nearly all personal data on-device, ensuring analytics do not leak personal data, going above and beyond to ensure their customers' devices are strongly encrypted (and exceptionally difficult to break, even for government entities)... And they've made a point of publicizing this during their keynotes, too, so much of this isn't necessarily even under-the-hood details that only us nerds know about.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Indeed. They stared down the FBI with engineers threatening to quit and/or go to jail rather than compromising their users' phones. That had the enormous risk of making them unpalatable to the conservative half of the nation. Compare to yahoo, where they apparently handed out data to anyone asking, and not a single person considered it m0re important than their paycheck.
  - 10y ago