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I want self-driving cars to happen as quickly as possible, but Uber seems like they were extremely reckless and negligent here. Why not apply for a permit and s
by JamilD 10y ago
I want self-driving cars to happen as quickly as possible, but Uber seems like they were extremely reckless and negligent here. Why not apply for a permit and stay on the safe side?
And with at least two reported incidents of these cars running red lights, it seems like driver training and attentiveness was lacking. If the software wasn't ready, fine, but you have to be aware of that and train your drivers to be 100% attentive to their surroundings, especially since it's the first day of real, commercial trials.
- johnchristopher 10y agoThen we are better off driving for real because `not driving, meaning not being in control, but being ready to take the helm at any time` must be more exhausting (because you have to focus on everything not under your control vs focus on everything that you don't have control minus what you actually control) and increase our reaction time (since some time will pass between the moment you notice you have to take the helm and the moment when you actually are in control) than just driving.
- greglindahl 10y agoBeing ready to take the helm at any time is required by law, at this point. It applies to Google's test cars, to Tesla Autopilot, etc.
- deathanatos 10y agoAre Google's / Waymo's vehicles not steering-wheel and pedal free? E.g., go to Waymo's own site here[1], scroll to "2015 World’s first fully self-driving ride on public roads", and watch the video: they give, if I'm not mistaken, a blind man a ride in a steering-wheel-free, pedals-free autonomous vehicle on public roads, in Texas. Now, granted, the original article is about the CA DMV, but I've seen vehicles that are indistinguishable from the prototype car in the video driving in Mountain View. Unless there's a model with steering wheels and pedals (it is hard to say from the outside), that would seem to imply that Google is testing fully autonomous cars in California. (Note that I'm not trying to imply that this is illegal: I'm not well-versed enough in the DMV's rules around autonomous vehicles to know if it requires "being ready to take the helm at any time" or not. I also did not realize, until Waymo's announcement recently, that they were so far along.) [1]: https://waymo.com/journey/ https://waymo.com/journey/
- rgbrenner 10y agoeven though those cars are steering wheel and pedal free, a google employee is riding inside, with a laptop attached, and a big red stop button. Here's an image: http://www.mycoolbin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Googles-Self-driving-Car_2.png http://www.mycoolbin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Googles-...
- rwmj 10y agoWhat happens after they hit the big red button and the car stops in the middle of the street? Do they wait for a tow truck? Or do they rely on restarting the self-driving mode after the danger has passed?
- eginhard 10y ago"The prototype vehicles in particular are equipped with removable steering wheels, accelerator pedals and brake pedals that allow test drivers to take over driving if desired." [1] [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0RESYeQ897sJ:https://www.google.com/selfdrivingcar/faq/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk= https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0RESYe...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- johnchristopher 10y agoTo be clear (late posting, sorry) I believe that even if you have your hands on the wheel when the car is driving by itself it is more exhausting and dangerous than just driving the car yourself.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- nodesocket 10y agoThe real question is how hard is this permit to obtain? I'm also guessing the permit limits Uber from doing what they want completely.
- andrewguenther 10y agoSo that's a reason to just ignore it?
- chao- 10y ago> I'm also guessing the permit limits Uber from doing what they want completely. Yes, it is in fact a key feature of laws and statutes that they (sometimes) keep people from just doing whatever they want.
- amaks 10y agoHere the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CdJ4oae8f4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CdJ4oae8f4
- kinkdr 10y ago> Why not apply for a permit and stay on the safe side? When did Uber obey the law? Why would they start now? Edit: Apologies for my tone, but Uber has demonstrated quite a few times in the past that they don't have any respect for the law.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago> When did Uber obey the law? In absolute numbers, their company probably follows more laws than most people on this forum, since they operate in many different jurisdictions. It wouldn't surprise me if the average HN commenter committed more felonies than the average Uber executive, or of Uber as a whole.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dap 10y agoIt doesn't matter how many laws you follow. It matters how many you break.
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- Hydraulix989 10y agoThat is such an apples to oranges comparison.
- placeybordeaux 10y agoWhat kind of bizarre argument are you making?
- StavrosK 10y agoThat if you follow enough laws, it doesn't matter if you break some.
- automatwon 10y agoUber seems like they were extremely reckless YES. I live 10 feet away from the garage. I've noticed over the past few months that they've been ramping in typical startup fashion: hockey stick growth. After reading about Lyft's CEO, a narrative of "nice guys finishing last", I started realizing how unscrupulous Uber is. Sadly, cut-throat businesses win. I recently took an Uber ride, where the driver was an un-retired man in his 70s. He recently just abandoned his failing dry clean business. This one hits close to home for me, because my parents are approaching their 70s, holding on to a failing dry clean business, too. For me, hardworking people like this, with arguably bad business acumen, are counter example to the notion of "if you're poor, it's because you didn't work hard enough." Before the dry clean business, the Uber driver ran a deli business, but that was a failure, too. No doubt he possesses an entrepreneurial spirit, albeit he probably shouldn't. I can't fault him for not being smarter. He proceeded to tell me about his idea to create a website where people upload images of their face, at different angle, and can get a custom printed 3d figurine, that he would hand paint them. I didn't have the heart to tell him that as someone in the top 1% income bracket of 20-something year olds, who consistently blows money on expensive toys / gadgets / dinners, I would never spend $300 bucks on a custom painted figurine. See, he was an artist before coming to America. He said "I want to be an artist before I die. I was too busy making a living when I came to America". Uber gave this man a job. That's good. But he's being paid near minimum wage. To achieve that, he has to work 12+ hour days to acquire the bonuses that Uber uses to incentivize their drivers to become addicted. These are the kinds of risk Uber induces on its drivers, customers, and other people on the road. The sad reality is, he's going to be displaced from this minimum wage job by automation, much earlier than people expect. Uber doesn't care. I'm not saying Uber or any private company MUST care. I'm just illustrating how a company's values permeates itself, and precipitates to individuals' livelihoods. I recently read an article about the unit economics of Uber. It doesn't work out. Uber, in it's current form is based on leveraging free VC money to subsidize and incentivize somewhat artificial demand. It's predatory monopolistic tactics. They won't be able to live up to their unicorn IPO valuation hype. They NEED to expand into other domains. Recently, Uber acquired an A.I. startup, which I think is an indicator of this. Alternatively, they can fix the unit economics equation to be profitable. Autonomous vehicles is the purported answer. This VC and unicorn valuation environment, I believe, is resulting in this kind of hastiness, at the increased risk of human lives.
- trymas 10y ago> Why not apply for a permit and stay on the safe side? Because in our world - 'do it first and ask for mercy later' works better. It probably depends on situation if it's a unethical/bad tactics or not, though.
- stickfigure 10y agothese cars running red lights I watched quite the opposite problem the other day. Uber self-driving car pulled up to a red light on a busy intersection, in the left turn lane. The light turned green. I could tell that the car was in self-driving mode because it didn't step into the intersection like humans would do - not even slightly. The opposing traffic never let up enough to make a left turn, so the car stayed put, even through the yellow. Poor thing skipped a complete green light cycle. I think I heard a horn from some of the drivers backed up behind it. Self-driving cars might be a little too polite.
- euyyn 10y agoImagine the poor Google koala car in the streets around Union Square...
- cmurf 10y agoHumans do this also. It makes me wonder what the driver did before left turn arrows were common. In driver's ed, i was tought to pull into the intersection blocking the right lane of perpendicular traffic (to my left), the lane just after the crosswalk. A surprising number of people don't pull up at all.
- Shank 10y agoAs a new driver, I would much, much rather play it safe if I'm unfamiliar with the intersection & traffic flow than pull out. Does it seem silly to you? Probably. To me? No. I don't want to be caught in an intersection that I'm not supposed to be in when the light turns red.
- rfrey 10y agoIn Toronto where I live, you'd better pack a lunch if you have any left turns on your route. Probably supper, too.
- nixy 10y agoBut a green light allows you, even as you're turning left, to enter the intersection. The light lets you in to the intersection so that you can leave it when conditions are favorable to do so.
- abraca 10y agoUber has enough money and power to be negligent and reckless unfortunately. I was a big Uber user but the way they treated me after an accident (where I was the hurt passenger) was truly terrifying. I thought the whole Uber is "evil" thing was overblown but it is not. Be very, very careful with Uber. They have a lot of resources to fight with, and most people don't have the emotional or financial resources to go to trial with them. They're like a playground bully who gets away with anything because even the teachers can't win against them.
- teej 10y agoAre you able to speak more about your specific experience?
- abraca 10y agoI can't, I'm sorry. I could get some media around my story but I am a private person. Plus Uber would probably just discredit me and lie. I wish I didn't have to deal with them over the accident stuff because they fight really dirty.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- majewsky 10y agoIt's too late now since you used your normal account here, but next time, you might want to use a throwaway account to speak more freely.
- hkmurakami 10y agoI'm sad that I'm saying this, but why wait for a permit when there's little to no chance of actual drawback or punishment for being reckless?