5 ms·

Well, I'm 47 now and have had the open challenge since 1990 that if anyone can show me that the Bible is not what it purports to be, then I will have to renounc

by milesf 10y ago

Well, I'm 47 now and have had the open challenge since 1990 that if anyone can show me that the Bible is not what it purports to be, then I will have to renounce my faith and search elsewhere. I think that qualifies as an honest attempt :) I'm also not convinced that falsification is the be-all, end-all to deriving meaning. I think it's a very useful tool, but it has its flaws. Looks like we will have to agree to disagree that Christian Apologetics is merely about defending Christian doctrine. It does that, but it does so by encompassing historical, reasoned, and evidential bases. Is it proof? No. Is it a body of evidence that people can examine and decide for themselves if the message is plausible? Most certainly yes.

sago 10y ago
:) Question is, what does it purport to be? This is probably not the venue for this, but it is a rabbit hole, that's for sure. if you're really interested in a respectful disagreement, I'll happily share my email. I have the same open door, if anyone can give me a rational basis that supports their truth claims (without opening the door to claims they reject), then I'll change my view. I have, once. I was an evangelical, I'm not now. > we will have to agree to disagree ... it does so by Why is that disagreeing? I've argued from the outset that it uses tools of rationality in its defence of doctrine. My point has been that it begins with the certainty of the truth of its claims. And you haven't said what else apologetics does other than defend doctrine, just said we disagree on that point. You've not been forthcoming on examples, so far, here's another example. To be clear, it isn't a problem for me that defence (apologia, 1 Pet 3:15) is the point, just that you seem to think I'm missing something, but haven't given an example.
- milesf 10y ago
  Sounds like you're a sane person :) Respectful, honest disagreements I like. Drop me a line at immortal@coderpath.com.
ozy 10y ago
That is a challenge ;) I am not sure what you think the bible is though. But here are a few things. The bible predicts the earth is set on pillars (Job). But it is not. The bible says man was made in gods image, etc. So it is really surprising we can find fossil records from monkeys to humans, and find lots of Neanderthals and Denisovans. Jesus never heals any mentally handicapped people, as a matter of fact, they seem to be left out of the bible. But he does drive out demons. Is that god misdiagnosing people? The bible shows us two places where the religion changes: 2 Kings when Jeshua finds an "old scroll" and Jesus bringing a new message. Actually when you look deeper there are at least 5 different god views in the bible, I challenge you to find them. Imagine the god is like Kim Jong il (North Korea), could it be the bible is propaganda? It is more a bend then truth? How would you know the difference? (Go watch some German, or North Korean propaganda, then you know how that feels.) I can safely say, you are a better person than god, since you have certainly killed fewer innocent people. So all that love, that perfectness and goodness, propaganda ... I bet god never has to take a shit either.
- milesf 10y ago
  Nothing new. Let me up the challenge for you. All of the stuff you've said here and more can be better represented at http://bibviz.com/ http://bibviz.com/ There are great answers to your questions above and more, but in my experience those questions are usually not asked in earnest because once I've given an answer more questions are thrown at me. Let me pick out the last question I asked in earnest before becoming a Christian. There were many before it, but this was the last one I had: http://bibviz.com/how-did-judas-die-sab.html http://bibviz.com/how-did-judas-die-sab.html This is what's called a paradox. It appears to be a contradiction. A reasonable explanation that resolves the paradox is Judas hung himself and died. The body decomposed, fell on the rocks and his bowels gushed out. This is reasonable because in the following verse it explains why the property is called "The field of Blood". So what do you think? Is that reasonable? If I fork that website, I would turn the red line indicating a contradiction to blue, meaning that there is a reasonable explanation. Virtually every argument I've even been thrown I've been able to find an answer, but most people don't even know the questions little alone the answers.
  - ozy 10y ago
    I am not so sure if your example is of the same level. My questions were more at how can you "anchor" the bible. Broadly speaking, I think people can be somewhere on the following line: 1. The bible is the perfect word of the creator 2. The bible is inspired by a god 3. The bible is bronze/iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. But let me know how you think, I would guess you are somewhere between 1 or 2, but perhaps you would want to word it differently? When the bible talks about a soul, heaven, hell, judgement, angels, demons. How can we know that that is reliable? The only parts of the bible we can test for reliability is when it talks about things in our reality. But where it does, it shows a very naive view of reality. How then can we conclude its view of the spiritual world is any better?
    - milesf 10y ago
      It's is the most published book in human history, with over 6 billion copies. It outsells every book every year (sorry New York Times). The answers are there, in particular have a look at the archaeological & prophetic evidences. The question "how can we know that the Bible is reliable?" is an excellent question. As for Christianity, the Bible itself explains how to kill it: 1 Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." So all you have to do is explain away the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many have accepted the challenge and failed. I failed. I couldn't do it.

by milesf 10y ago

sago 10y ago

:) Question is, what does it purport to be? This is probably not the venue for this, but it is a rabbit hole, that's for sure. if you're really interested in a respectful disagreement, I'll happily share my email. I have the same open door, if anyone can give me a rational basis that supports their truth claims (without opening the door to claims they reject), then I'll change my view. I have, once. I was an evangelical, I'm not now. > we will have to agree to disagree ... it does so by Why is that disagreeing? I've argued from the outset that it uses tools of rationality in its defence of doctrine. My point has been that it begins with the certainty of the truth of its claims. And you haven't said what else apologetics does other than defend doctrine, just said we disagree on that point. You've not been forthcoming on examples, so far, here's another example. To be clear, it isn't a problem for me that defence (apologia, 1 Pet 3:15) is the point, just that you seem to think I'm missing something, but haven't given an example.

milesf 10y ago
Sounds like you're a sane person :) Respectful, honest disagreements I like. Drop me a line at immortal@coderpath.com.

ozy 10y ago

That is a challenge ;) I am not sure what you think the bible is though. But here are a few things. The bible predicts the earth is set on pillars (Job). But it is not. The bible says man was made in gods image, etc. So it is really surprising we can find fossil records from monkeys to humans, and find lots of Neanderthals and Denisovans. Jesus never heals any mentally handicapped people, as a matter of fact, they seem to be left out of the bible. But he does drive out demons. Is that god misdiagnosing people? The bible shows us two places where the religion changes: 2 Kings when Jeshua finds an "old scroll" and Jesus bringing a new message. Actually when you look deeper there are at least 5 different god views in the bible, I challenge you to find them. Imagine the god is like Kim Jong il (North Korea), could it be the bible is propaganda? It is more a bend then truth? How would you know the difference? (Go watch some German, or North Korean propaganda, then you know how that feels.) I can safely say, you are a better person than god, since you have certainly killed fewer innocent people. So all that love, that perfectness and goodness, propaganda ... I bet god never has to take a shit either.

milesf 10y ago
Nothing new. Let me up the challenge for you. All of the stuff you've said here and more can be better represented at http://bibviz.com/ http://bibviz.com/ There are great answers to your questions above and more, but in my experience those questions are usually not asked in earnest because once I've given an answer more questions are thrown at me. Let me pick out the last question I asked in earnest before becoming a Christian. There were many before it, but this was the last one I had: http://bibviz.com/how-did-judas-die-sab.html http://bibviz.com/how-did-judas-die-sab.html This is what's called a paradox. It appears to be a contradiction. A reasonable explanation that resolves the paradox is Judas hung himself and died. The body decomposed, fell on the rocks and his bowels gushed out. This is reasonable because in the following verse it explains why the property is called "The field of Blood". So what do you think? Is that reasonable? If I fork that website, I would turn the red line indicating a contradiction to blue, meaning that there is a reasonable explanation. Virtually every argument I've even been thrown I've been able to find an answer, but most people don't even know the questions little alone the answers.
- ozy 10y ago
  I am not so sure if your example is of the same level. My questions were more at how can you "anchor" the bible. Broadly speaking, I think people can be somewhere on the following line: 1. The bible is the perfect word of the creator 2. The bible is inspired by a god 3. The bible is bronze/iron age people writing down their myths and beliefs. But let me know how you think, I would guess you are somewhere between 1 or 2, but perhaps you would want to word it differently? When the bible talks about a soul, heaven, hell, judgement, angels, demons. How can we know that that is reliable? The only parts of the bible we can test for reliability is when it talks about things in our reality. But where it does, it shows a very naive view of reality. How then can we conclude its view of the spiritual world is any better?
  - milesf 10y ago
    It's is the most published book in human history, with over 6 billion copies. It outsells every book every year (sorry New York Times). The answers are there, in particular have a look at the archaeological & prophetic evidences. The question "how can we know that the Bible is reliable?" is an excellent question. As for Christianity, the Bible itself explains how to kill it: 1 Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." So all you have to do is explain away the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many have accepted the challenge and failed. I failed. I couldn't do it.