5 ms·

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
DarkTree 10y ago
Yeah I agree. I am single, healthy, and car-less. I pay $1500 a month rent for a pretty nice place, and have a avg software engineer salary, and I feel very comfortable, even paying for a large student loan. The real kicker is that I was living in this same situation for $50k salary before it doubled, and still felt I had some disposable income that I could save up. However, I can't imagine still feeling comfortable having all of the expenses that come with a family. I think that's what triggers the threshold for that extreme cost of living in SF. But again, for a young person with a tech salary and the very minimum in financial obligations, I think living here is easily doable.
superqd 10y ago
I interviewed over phone and skype with a Bay area company not too long ago. In between interviews, since things were going well, I started looking for places to live. I have 2 kids, and currently live in a 4200 sq ft house in Texas. I was more than fine with downsizing, but not at the cost of eating up all my salary to live with my family in an apartment that was barely acceptable when I was single. My kids are currently in a top school district here, and to send them to a top (public) school in the Bay area was insanely expensive. The salary I would have received ($130k range) was no where near enough to get me into a 2k sq ft home near good schools. As I researched areas, I just couldn't understand how the salaries were so low, and the cost of homes/apartments so high. But if you have no family to support, take on roommates and are fine with 500 sq ft to live in, then it will be mostly ok to live there.
- strictnein 10y ago
  I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.
  - rconti 10y ago
    Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living in 6000sqft mansions and it just seems so insane. Especially when they're paying $500/mo on A/C in AZ or TX. Just all seems so wasteful in a way that expensive real estate isn't.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      I get what you're saying, we were in a 1800sqft home before this and a 780sqft home before that. After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. The only time we notice the size of it is when we get back from a vacation. Also, once you have kids, homes feel much smaller. Before kids, we lived in a 600sqft rental duplex and a 800sqft loft and they both felt like more than enough room. As for energy costs, in MN homes are very well insulated, you frequently have a fair amount of trees providing shade, and you have a basement that's 30-40% of your sqft, so heating and cooling costs aren't quite as dramatic, even when it's -20F like it will be this weekend.
      - sedachv 10y ago
        > After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. Who does the cleaning, you or your partner? I never got used to cleaning a larger space. It is definitely a huge waste of time, vacuum bots only help marginally. Also annoying is walking or especially moving something from one end of the dwelling to the other.
derefr 10y ago
I'm a senior engineer. I don't want to move to the Bay (not even in the US, and I love where I live), but I really wish I could make the money I can make there. I'm somewhat pondering an Evil Scheme where I start a one-to-one "subcontracting" firm, where a plain-bad programmer who would never otherwise make it in a startup environment can hire someone [me] to do all their work for them—and maybe even guide them through their interviews with a concealed earpiece. Basically, the company would have "actually" hired me, and the person in the startup's office would just be serving as a human proxy for my skills. Of course, that's effectively just a hack to get around the idiotic policies companies have against hiring remote workers for local salaries; and one that would cost quite a bit of salary (the proxy would still have to get paid, after all.) But I bet it would still turn out better than a non-Bay-Area wage.
- morgante 10y ago
  Or just find a company that pays remote engineers SV salaries. They exist.
stalcottsmith 10y ago
We (family of four, parents 40ish years old) are fortunate enough to be somewhat location independent with the stipulation that we have to be in US/Pacific timezone to keep sane hours. We looked at the Bay Area one more time this year before choosing Reno. Much lower taxes, much better housing choices at our affordability level, general convenience and outdoor recreation in and around Tahoe were the attraction. This area has long been a landing spot for retirees from the BA but it's now booming with younger people and families. It's improving quickly. For someone who owns a business and has some location independence, it's a great choice. Also commercial rents are much more startup-friendly if you need offices and such. A meeting in SF is only a 4 hour drive away. Daily flights to SF and San Jose if you're in a hurry.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

DarkTree 10y ago

Yeah I agree. I am single, healthy, and car-less. I pay $1500 a month rent for a pretty nice place, and have a avg software engineer salary, and I feel very comfortable, even paying for a large student loan. The real kicker is that I was living in this same situation for $50k salary before it doubled, and still felt I had some disposable income that I could save up. However, I can't imagine still feeling comfortable having all of the expenses that come with a family. I think that's what triggers the threshold for that extreme cost of living in SF. But again, for a young person with a tech salary and the very minimum in financial obligations, I think living here is easily doable.

superqd 10y ago

I interviewed over phone and skype with a Bay area company not too long ago. In between interviews, since things were going well, I started looking for places to live. I have 2 kids, and currently live in a 4200 sq ft house in Texas. I was more than fine with downsizing, but not at the cost of eating up all my salary to live with my family in an apartment that was barely acceptable when I was single. My kids are currently in a top school district here, and to send them to a top (public) school in the Bay area was insanely expensive. The salary I would have received ($130k range) was no where near enough to get me into a 2k sq ft home near good schools. As I researched areas, I just couldn't understand how the salaries were so low, and the cost of homes/apartments so high. But if you have no family to support, take on roommates and are fine with 500 sq ft to live in, then it will be mostly ok to live there.

strictnein 10y ago
I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.
- rconti 10y ago
  Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living in 6000sqft mansions and it just seems so insane. Especially when they're paying $500/mo on A/C in AZ or TX. Just all seems so wasteful in a way that expensive real estate isn't.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    I get what you're saying, we were in a 1800sqft home before this and a 780sqft home before that. After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. The only time we notice the size of it is when we get back from a vacation. Also, once you have kids, homes feel much smaller. Before kids, we lived in a 600sqft rental duplex and a 800sqft loft and they both felt like more than enough room. As for energy costs, in MN homes are very well insulated, you frequently have a fair amount of trees providing shade, and you have a basement that's 30-40% of your sqft, so heating and cooling costs aren't quite as dramatic, even when it's -20F like it will be this weekend.
    - sedachv 10y ago
      > After the first month or so in a space this size, it doesn't feel that big. You just get kind of used to it, although you kind of appreciate the space. Who does the cleaning, you or your partner? I never got used to cleaning a larger space. It is definitely a huge waste of time, vacuum bots only help marginally. Also annoying is walking or especially moving something from one end of the dwelling to the other.

derefr 10y ago

I'm a senior engineer. I don't want to move to the Bay (not even in the US, and I love where I live), but I really wish I could make the money I can make there. I'm somewhat pondering an Evil Scheme where I start a one-to-one "subcontracting" firm, where a plain-bad programmer who would never otherwise make it in a startup environment can hire someone [me] to do all their work for them—and maybe even guide them through their interviews with a concealed earpiece. Basically, the company would have "actually" hired me, and the person in the startup's office would just be serving as a human proxy for my skills. Of course, that's effectively just a hack to get around the idiotic policies companies have against hiring remote workers for local salaries; and one that would cost quite a bit of salary (the proxy would still have to get paid, after all.) But I bet it would still turn out better than a non-Bay-Area wage.

morgante 10y ago
Or just find a company that pays remote engineers SV salaries. They exist.

stalcottsmith 10y ago

We (family of four, parents 40ish years old) are fortunate enough to be somewhat location independent with the stipulation that we have to be in US/Pacific timezone to keep sane hours. We looked at the Bay Area one more time this year before choosing Reno. Much lower taxes, much better housing choices at our affordability level, general convenience and outdoor recreation in and around Tahoe were the attraction. This area has long been a landing spot for retirees from the BA but it's now booming with younger people and families. It's improving quickly. For someone who owns a business and has some location independence, it's a great choice. Also commercial rents are much more startup-friendly if you need offices and such. A meeting in SF is only a 4 hour drive away. Daily flights to SF and San Jose if you're in a hurry.