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What an exceptionally well argued point. I particularly like the author's argument, because the only behavior that apple would have to change would be its warr

What an exceptionally well argued point. I particularly like the author's argument, because the only behavior that apple would have to change would be its warranty policy; it wouldn't force apple to tear down it's walled garden, apple just couldn't void your warranty if you chose to leave it.

stcredzero 16y ago
I think it's reasonable to have Apple to honor its warranty on the hardware if you can restore your jailbroken device to its standard configuration. Unlike running a car with 3rd party components, there are almost no effects on hardware that caused by running 3rd party software. The two exceptions I know about being flash memory and the battery. Software can have a direct effect on these. I would accept a waiver of warranty on these two components for running non-Apple tested jailbroken software. Oh wait, the baseband has a direct bearing on the functioning of the 3G or mobile telephony hardware. Hmmm. I guess we'd have to waive the hardware warranty on that part too for jailbreaks.
- lutorm 16y ago
  This has been addressed for car parts. If you use aftermarket parts and your car breaks, they can't void the warranty unless they can show that it was reasonably caused by the non-standard part. For example, if you "chip" your car and then blow a head gasket, they can justifiably argue that this was caused by running the engine at higher power. If the catalytic converter or the suspension breaks, they can't. So if they can establish a case that the radio broke because the jailbroken software ran it at too high power or whatnot, then they might have a case. If it just fails, on the other hand, I don't think they can.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I'm not thinking of the radio breaking, but it might well work improperly due to software. This would render a phone unusable. (Can we have a warranty on AT&T?) In the case of flash RAM or the battery: software can clearly break those.
    - CaptainZapp 16y ago
      Strange. When I install _any_ software on my Symbian powered Nokia phone neither Nokia nor my carrier void the warranty. I can get a Maemo (or MeGo) phone and there's a documented process to grant myself root privileges. I get a warning that I may seriously bork the phone, but that doesn't void the warranty on the hardware.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        That's applications level software I presume ? What if you flash it with a new boot-up image, will they still honour the warranty then ?
        CaptainZapp 16y ago
        (both of you) have a point, of course. Then again I don't need to pull such stunts in order to install (any) userland software on my phone.
      - illumin8 16y ago
        Nokia wouldn't allow you to flash your 3G baseband firmware. That is what SIM unlocks do for iPhone. Once you've flashed it, you've lost all FCC approval because the FCC approves a specific hardware and baseband firmware combination.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    The catalytic converter is actually a bad example because by chipping your car you could conceivably change the mixture in such a way that the exhaust gas temperatures would go outside their permitted ranges, and most cars don't have a failsafe for that. To actually prove that the chipped ECU was the cause is still going to be pretty tricky though, but the catalytic converter is for this purpose still very much part of the engine. The seat upholstery, the window glass, accessories and so on are likely to be unaffected, they are literally along for the ride, but almost every other part in the car, even including the suspension and the chassis would be operating at higher stress levels when you increase the engine power. If the manufacturer pleads its case well they might be able to make that stick. If they sell the same model with a higher powered engine but all the rest of the drive components identical they're out of luck.
    - lutorm 16y ago
      Actually, all modern emissions-compliant cars control lambda closed-loop by automatically adjusting fuel delivery, and will drop power if signals from oxygen sensors are out of the ordinary. That's required by emissions regulations. So, no, it can't. Moreover, due to speed limits, any power increase can only be realized over very short times anyway. And while in principle you are correct about the suspension, suspension wear is not based on available power but on speed and road conditions. Since my warranty wasn't voided by driving in Boston (which has horrific road conditions compared to the Bay Area) or by speeding, it shouldn't based on increasing power either.
  - illumin8 16y ago
    The problem with modding a car is this: - If I mod a car such that it performs better, but violates emmissions and safety laws, is such a modification legal for street use? The law says no. Similarly: - If I mod the baseband firmware in my iPhone such that it lets me use it on other carriers, but isn't approved by the FCC and might cause interference with approved devices, is it legal to use it on the airwaves? The law also says no. Also, flashing the baseband firmware on a radio could definitely cause permanent, irreversible damage. How can you legitimately expect any hardware vendor to honor a warranty after this?
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - sfall 16y ago
      I think that FCC approval is based on the frequencies of the antenna not the carrier.
      - illumin8 16y ago
        The FCC approval is based on lab-testing of a specific hardware and firmware configuration. They test it in the lab to make sure it doesn't step on other licensee's frequencies. Sometimes, just by putting a different antenna and hardware configuration on the same radio, you can cause interference, harmonics, etc, that were not present on a past model. This is why every new model of iPhone/iPad needs FCC approval before it can be sold to the public. Telling the general public that they can load whatever firmware they want on their radio ignores the fact that these radios have highly complex software algorithms affecting frequency hopping, collision detection, etc. It would be like saying "anyone on our network can modify their Ethernet firmware" and then wondering why someone took down the entire LAN because their custom firmware did a broadcast storm.

stcredzero 16y ago

I think it's reasonable to have Apple to honor its warranty on the hardware if you can restore your jailbroken device to its standard configuration. Unlike running a car with 3rd party components, there are almost no effects on hardware that caused by running 3rd party software. The two exceptions I know about being flash memory and the battery. Software can have a direct effect on these. I would accept a waiver of warranty on these two components for running non-Apple tested jailbroken software. Oh wait, the baseband has a direct bearing on the functioning of the 3G or mobile telephony hardware. Hmmm. I guess we'd have to waive the hardware warranty on that part too for jailbreaks.

lutorm 16y ago
This has been addressed for car parts. If you use aftermarket parts and your car breaks, they can't void the warranty unless they can show that it was reasonably caused by the non-standard part. For example, if you "chip" your car and then blow a head gasket, they can justifiably argue that this was caused by running the engine at higher power. If the catalytic converter or the suspension breaks, they can't. So if they can establish a case that the radio broke because the jailbroken software ran it at too high power or whatnot, then they might have a case. If it just fails, on the other hand, I don't think they can.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I'm not thinking of the radio breaking, but it might well work improperly due to software. This would render a phone unusable. (Can we have a warranty on AT&T?) In the case of flash RAM or the battery: software can clearly break those.
  - CaptainZapp 16y ago
    Strange. When I install _any_ software on my Symbian powered Nokia phone neither Nokia nor my carrier void the warranty. I can get a Maemo (or MeGo) phone and there's a documented process to grant myself root privileges. I get a warning that I may seriously bork the phone, but that doesn't void the warranty on the hardware.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      That's applications level software I presume ? What if you flash it with a new boot-up image, will they still honour the warranty then ?
      - CaptainZapp 16y ago
        (both of you) have a point, of course. Then again I don't need to pull such stunts in order to install (any) userland software on my phone.
    - illumin8 16y ago
      Nokia wouldn't allow you to flash your 3G baseband firmware. That is what SIM unlocks do for iPhone. Once you've flashed it, you've lost all FCC approval because the FCC approves a specific hardware and baseband firmware combination.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  The catalytic converter is actually a bad example because by chipping your car you could conceivably change the mixture in such a way that the exhaust gas temperatures would go outside their permitted ranges, and most cars don't have a failsafe for that. To actually prove that the chipped ECU was the cause is still going to be pretty tricky though, but the catalytic converter is for this purpose still very much part of the engine. The seat upholstery, the window glass, accessories and so on are likely to be unaffected, they are literally along for the ride, but almost every other part in the car, even including the suspension and the chassis would be operating at higher stress levels when you increase the engine power. If the manufacturer pleads its case well they might be able to make that stick. If they sell the same model with a higher powered engine but all the rest of the drive components identical they're out of luck.
  - lutorm 16y ago
    Actually, all modern emissions-compliant cars control lambda closed-loop by automatically adjusting fuel delivery, and will drop power if signals from oxygen sensors are out of the ordinary. That's required by emissions regulations. So, no, it can't. Moreover, due to speed limits, any power increase can only be realized over very short times anyway. And while in principle you are correct about the suspension, suspension wear is not based on available power but on speed and road conditions. Since my warranty wasn't voided by driving in Boston (which has horrific road conditions compared to the Bay Area) or by speeding, it shouldn't based on increasing power either.
- illumin8 16y ago
  The problem with modding a car is this: - If I mod a car such that it performs better, but violates emmissions and safety laws, is such a modification legal for street use? The law says no. Similarly: - If I mod the baseband firmware in my iPhone such that it lets me use it on other carriers, but isn't approved by the FCC and might cause interference with approved devices, is it legal to use it on the airwaves? The law also says no. Also, flashing the baseband firmware on a radio could definitely cause permanent, irreversible damage. How can you legitimately expect any hardware vendor to honor a warranty after this?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - sfall 16y ago
    I think that FCC approval is based on the frequencies of the antenna not the carrier.
    - illumin8 16y ago
      The FCC approval is based on lab-testing of a specific hardware and firmware configuration. They test it in the lab to make sure it doesn't step on other licensee's frequencies. Sometimes, just by putting a different antenna and hardware configuration on the same radio, you can cause interference, harmonics, etc, that were not present on a past model. This is why every new model of iPhone/iPad needs FCC approval before it can be sold to the public. Telling the general public that they can load whatever firmware they want on their radio ignores the fact that these radios have highly complex software algorithms affecting frequency hopping, collision detection, etc. It would be like saying "anyone on our network can modify their Ethernet firmware" and then wondering why someone took down the entire LAN because their custom firmware did a broadcast storm.