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So many of the comments here have to do with "his position keeps changing" I'm not defending Trump personally - but as a concept, lets dig into this a bit. So

So many of the comments here have to do with "his position keeps changing" I'm not defending Trump personally - but as a concept, lets dig into this a bit. So someone gets into a position of gaining a vast amount of knowledge over a short period of time from experts and consultants... Do you expect that their perspective hasn't shifted, or that they will stick to their guns no matter what? Because that's politics as usual - ignoring new evidence an voting/acting in a manner to support your original stance... never changing (especially drastically) But isn't the way it should be just this - that new information should inform your decision and, if you're open minded, you should consider changing your stance if the new information supports it? I'd take someone who changes their mind with new information over someone who sticks their fingers in their ear when information that opposes their viewpoint comes to their attention. Even if their decisions are in disagreement with me, their ability to change their stance says that they are at least making those decisions as opposed to having those decisions decided by what party label they strap on their chest...

thisisdallas 10y ago
It's an odd time when someone is criticized for changing their mind based on new or changing information.
- aetherson 10y ago
  No it's not. People have always been criticized for it.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Changing your mind based on new information is excellent. We should all strive to do this. Constantly changing your mind based on nothing in particular beyond whoever you talked to last is not the same thing, though. Trump appears to have no real opinions. He says whatever he last heard, or whatever he thinks the people he's talking to want to hear. For example, he used to be pro-choice. When he started running for President he suddenly became anti-abortion. And not just anti-abortion, but hardcore anti-abortion, talking about jailing women who obtain them. When everybody on his side recoiled from this, he instantaneously backpedaled. Or take climate change, for example. During the campaign he maintained that it was nonsense, a Chinese hoax, etc. After the election, when interviewed by the New York Times, he said "I think there is some connectivity" between human activity and climate change. And after that, he continued to build an administration utterly hostile to doing anything about it. All while explicitly citing climate change as a danger when e.g. applying for permits to build sea walls for his property. Pick just about any position Trump has expressed, and you'll see this pattern. He changes constantly, and not based on a careful evaluation of new information, but just whatever the environment happens to be at that moment.
  - truth_sentinell 10y ago
    This probably means he's lying and he doesn't give two fucks about the country. Just get power no matter the means.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      Have we had Presidents who couldn't have been described thus? Not in my lifetime.
      - vkou 10y ago
        Most of them only lie try to blatantly lie about important things (Or at least, when they feel like there's something resembling a fig leaf they can cover up with.) He lies just about every time he speaks. We really should not be listening to anything this man says. There is no point to performing Kremlinology on Trump. There is no consistent narrative, there are no secret subtexts to his utterances, that can be gleaned through careful inspection and comparison. He says whatever comes to mind, which is usually the most expedient thing to say at that particular moment.
        mikeash 10y ago
        That's what worries me about Trump. If he merely lusted for power and was willing to lie to obtain it, like a normal politician, it wouldn't bug me as much. Not that this is good, but it's something we can deal with. I'm not sure it's even fair to say that Trump lies. He's outright incoherent. The words are just meaningless. Is it even a lie if there's no underlying intent? Consider, for example: "I don’t want to have guns in classrooms although in some cases teachers should have guns in classrooms, frankly, because teachers are, you know, things that are going on in our schools are unbelievable, you look at some of our schools, unbelievable what’s going on – but I’m not advocating guns in classrooms, but remember, in some cases, and a lot of people have made this case, teachers should be able to have guns, trained teachers should be able to have guns in classrooms." A normal politician might come out in favor of banning guns from school, then later on say that teachers should be allowed to have guns. That might be a rational change of of heart based on new information, or a response to big sacks of money dropped off by the NRA, or an attempt to pander to a new voter base. But when the change comes in the same freakin' sentence you just can't make anything of it. I'm not worried that Trump will cause problems because of a lust for power and willingness to lie, I'm worried that he'll cause problems because he seems to be entirely detached from reality. This is why I'm glad to see these people advising him. Maybe they can influence him in good directions. But I'm not terribly optimistic, because I'm sure Steve Bannon and friends will cancel it out and more.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
threatofrain 10y ago
The problem is political interface. How do I vote if politicians can just change their position just a month after the elections? Or if I can't even pin down their position, because they're not sure themselves? What am I actually voting for? So if you are an issue-based voter, you don't vote for the right person (in which case you'd be principally evaluating their personal qualifications), instead you vote for specific policy positions (here you principally evaluate policy qualifications). The politician who changes their views according to new information is simply less comprehensible to outside parties. It may be better to be a more easily understood politician who sticks to position in a way that is <too> sticky.
flatpointer23 10y ago
There's a difference between changing one's opinion based on evidence and thought... And having, say, mutually exclusive policy positions on the minimum wage during the campaign. (Eliminate it federally, raise it at the federal level, don't raise it at the federal level, let the states decide, let the states decide but it must go up.) Or mutually exclusive positions on a ton of policy issues: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801 http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-dona... There isn't, to me, evidence of evolution or evaluation. Or a rapidity of such that calls to mind comic-book mutation. We can't get the full view into his mind, obviously, but it seems like we don't have access to a base set of principles from which Donny makes his decisions.
gnarbarian 10y ago
Watch what he does and who he appoints. Having a meeting with someone isn't always that substantial. The crazy stuff he says is just for shock and awe value. This is how he controls the narrative and keeps it away from weightier investigative criticisms of his actions Which are far more damaging and substantial. A remark can always be played off as a joke, bluster or banter. His supporters see that, and get a kick out of seeing him troll the media. This way he makes some off the cuff remark that has people in news and social media tripping over themselves to denounce and loudly proclaim righteous indignation. His supporters laugh, the crazy fringe love him, and the media and the left chase their tail around in circles until he needs to distract them from something else.
- karmacondon 10y ago
  Please, name for me one thing that he has successfully distracted the 24 news cycle away from
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    The silly Hamilton bullshit distracted people from him settling the Trump University lawsuit. http://mashable.com/2016/12/13/donald-trump-distractions/#.48pk3tpnsqJ http://mashable.com/2016/12/13/donald-trump-distractions/#.4... Edit: This also works by keeping the focus on shallow things that can't be legally damaging. The media is in a cycle of reacting to gaffe after gaffe rather than digging into boring details that might lead somewhere.
  - atomi 10y ago
    My favorite one is when USIC released their statement saying they were confident Russia had compromised U.S political organizations to try and influence the election[1] and the "grab em by the pussy" tape was released that same day[2] 1. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-departme... 2. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_trump_2005_tape_i_grab_women_by_the_pussy.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_tru...
fauigerzigerk 10y ago
What new information are you talking about? Are we really seeing an open minded person learning from new information? Or is this simply the standard playbook of populist politcs? Say anything that wins you the election, regardless of how vile, untrue or unworkable it may be. If you win, come up with some plan that doesn't make the idiocy of your campaign proposals glaringly obvious right away.

thisisdallas 10y ago

It's an odd time when someone is criticized for changing their mind based on new or changing information.

aetherson 10y ago
No it's not. People have always been criticized for it.
mikeash 10y ago
Changing your mind based on new information is excellent. We should all strive to do this. Constantly changing your mind based on nothing in particular beyond whoever you talked to last is not the same thing, though. Trump appears to have no real opinions. He says whatever he last heard, or whatever he thinks the people he's talking to want to hear. For example, he used to be pro-choice. When he started running for President he suddenly became anti-abortion. And not just anti-abortion, but hardcore anti-abortion, talking about jailing women who obtain them. When everybody on his side recoiled from this, he instantaneously backpedaled. Or take climate change, for example. During the campaign he maintained that it was nonsense, a Chinese hoax, etc. After the election, when interviewed by the New York Times, he said "I think there is some connectivity" between human activity and climate change. And after that, he continued to build an administration utterly hostile to doing anything about it. All while explicitly citing climate change as a danger when e.g. applying for permits to build sea walls for his property. Pick just about any position Trump has expressed, and you'll see this pattern. He changes constantly, and not based on a careful evaluation of new information, but just whatever the environment happens to be at that moment.
- truth_sentinell 10y ago
  This probably means he's lying and he doesn't give two fucks about the country. Just get power no matter the means.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Have we had Presidents who couldn't have been described thus? Not in my lifetime.
    - vkou 10y ago
      Most of them only lie try to blatantly lie about important things (Or at least, when they feel like there's something resembling a fig leaf they can cover up with.) He lies just about every time he speaks. We really should not be listening to anything this man says. There is no point to performing Kremlinology on Trump. There is no consistent narrative, there are no secret subtexts to his utterances, that can be gleaned through careful inspection and comparison. He says whatever comes to mind, which is usually the most expedient thing to say at that particular moment.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        That's what worries me about Trump. If he merely lusted for power and was willing to lie to obtain it, like a normal politician, it wouldn't bug me as much. Not that this is good, but it's something we can deal with. I'm not sure it's even fair to say that Trump lies. He's outright incoherent. The words are just meaningless. Is it even a lie if there's no underlying intent? Consider, for example: "I don’t want to have guns in classrooms although in some cases teachers should have guns in classrooms, frankly, because teachers are, you know, things that are going on in our schools are unbelievable, you look at some of our schools, unbelievable what’s going on – but I’m not advocating guns in classrooms, but remember, in some cases, and a lot of people have made this case, teachers should be able to have guns, trained teachers should be able to have guns in classrooms." A normal politician might come out in favor of banning guns from school, then later on say that teachers should be allowed to have guns. That might be a rational change of of heart based on new information, or a response to big sacks of money dropped off by the NRA, or an attempt to pander to a new voter base. But when the change comes in the same freakin' sentence you just can't make anything of it. I'm not worried that Trump will cause problems because of a lust for power and willingness to lie, I'm worried that he'll cause problems because he seems to be entirely detached from reality. This is why I'm glad to see these people advising him. Maybe they can influence him in good directions. But I'm not terribly optimistic, because I'm sure Steve Bannon and friends will cancel it out and more.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

threatofrain 10y ago

The problem is political interface. How do I vote if politicians can just change their position just a month after the elections? Or if I can't even pin down their position, because they're not sure themselves? What am I actually voting for? So if you are an issue-based voter, you don't vote for the right person (in which case you'd be principally evaluating their personal qualifications), instead you vote for specific policy positions (here you principally evaluate policy qualifications). The politician who changes their views according to new information is simply less comprehensible to outside parties. It may be better to be a more easily understood politician who sticks to position in a way that is <too> sticky.

flatpointer23 10y ago

There's a difference between changing one's opinion based on evidence and thought... And having, say, mutually exclusive policy positions on the minimum wage during the campaign. (Eliminate it federally, raise it at the federal level, don't raise it at the federal level, let the states decide, let the states decide but it must go up.) Or mutually exclusive positions on a ton of policy issues: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801 http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-dona... There isn't, to me, evidence of evolution or evaluation. Or a rapidity of such that calls to mind comic-book mutation. We can't get the full view into his mind, obviously, but it seems like we don't have access to a base set of principles from which Donny makes his decisions.

gnarbarian 10y ago

Watch what he does and who he appoints. Having a meeting with someone isn't always that substantial. The crazy stuff he says is just for shock and awe value. This is how he controls the narrative and keeps it away from weightier investigative criticisms of his actions Which are far more damaging and substantial. A remark can always be played off as a joke, bluster or banter. His supporters see that, and get a kick out of seeing him troll the media. This way he makes some off the cuff remark that has people in news and social media tripping over themselves to denounce and loudly proclaim righteous indignation. His supporters laugh, the crazy fringe love him, and the media and the left chase their tail around in circles until he needs to distract them from something else.

karmacondon 10y ago
Please, name for me one thing that he has successfully distracted the 24 news cycle away from
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  The silly Hamilton bullshit distracted people from him settling the Trump University lawsuit. http://mashable.com/2016/12/13/donald-trump-distractions/#.48pk3tpnsqJ http://mashable.com/2016/12/13/donald-trump-distractions/#.4... Edit: This also works by keeping the focus on shallow things that can't be legally damaging. The media is in a cycle of reacting to gaffe after gaffe rather than digging into boring details that might lead somewhere.
- atomi 10y ago
  My favorite one is when USIC released their statement saying they were confident Russia had compromised U.S political organizations to try and influence the election[1] and the "grab em by the pussy" tape was released that same day[2] 1. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-departme... 2. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_trump_2005_tape_i_grab_women_by_the_pussy.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_tru...

fauigerzigerk 10y ago

What new information are you talking about? Are we really seeing an open minded person learning from new information? Or is this simply the standard playbook of populist politcs? Say anything that wins you the election, regardless of how vile, untrue or unworkable it may be. If you win, come up with some plan that doesn't make the idiocy of your campaign proposals glaringly obvious right away.