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You're arguing with sentiment. That's on a case by case basis. Do they have a moral right to live in the United States? Probably not. Should we let them stay?

You're arguing with sentiment. That's on a case by case basis. Do they have a moral right to live in the United States? Probably not. Should we let them stay? Depends on how we feel. It's not up to them anymore.

tptacek 10y ago
How do we make decisions about these things if not based on some set of principles? What's the logic we'd use to deport someone brought here as an infant, who has known no other country but ours? What possible benefit could accrue to use to offset the harm we'd be doing? What's the point? That the law doesn't mandate an entitlement to permanent residency for undocumented immigrants brought here as children does not mean that we should be arbitrary about making these decisions.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > What's the logic we'd use to deport someone brought here as an infant, who has known no other country but ours? We should not try to help clean up other peoples' mistakes. If you bring a newborn illegally into a country where they should not be, you're accepting the consequences not just for yourself, but the baby. The point is not we're deporting the baby, we're deporting the whole family and trying to deter future illegal immigration.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Again: I am not talking about newborns brought here illegally. I am talking about birthright citizens of the United States, owed all the same rights and protections as any other citizen.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      You're the one that said "brought here as an infant", not "born in the United States". And those babies born here have the same rights and protections. Either move to another country because your family is there or stay here without your family. Those are the rights that all citizens have.
pcwalton 10y ago
> Do they have a moral right to live in the United States? Probably not. Yes, they do. Everyone has a moral right not to be deported to somewhere they've never known, especially if it tears up families in the process, extra especially if it's ultimately just for bureaucratic reasons.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > Everyone has a moral right not to be deported to somewhere they've never known. That's the exact same argument people who live in any rapidly gentrifying neighborhood make. You do NOT have the moral right to live whereever you want, even if it's the only place you know. Fundamentally you live where you can afford and it's legal for you to live. You don't have the rights to any piece of land unless you have a deed, and even then, eminent domain can trump your rights.
  - pcwalton 10y ago
    1. Out-of-control housing prices are also a moral problem. That's why it's such a hot-button issue, after all. The difference is that the housing market is a tough issue to solve, while the prospect of mass deportations is a very easy issue to solve: don't start mass deportations. 2. We're not talking about having to move across town. We're talking about being deported to a country you've never known. Being forcibly separated from your friends and family. Being unable to even visit them due to the mandatory 10-year ban on entering the United States after being deported. And again, since you mention legality, it was illegal for Japanese-Americans to live in their homes during World War II. Yet they had a right to do so.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      > don't start mass deportations. Hah. You're already confusing mass deportation as a moral problem, rather than a legal and policy problem. Should illegal immigrants be deported en masse? Should criminals be incarcerated en mass? > We're talking about being deported to a country you've never known. You're talking about children who were born in the states? They have a choice. Either stay in the states or go with their parents to another country. It's up to them, just like it's up to any other citizen. The children are not forced to leave.

tptacek 10y ago

How do we make decisions about these things if not based on some set of principles? What's the logic we'd use to deport someone brought here as an infant, who has known no other country but ours? What possible benefit could accrue to use to offset the harm we'd be doing? What's the point? That the law doesn't mandate an entitlement to permanent residency for undocumented immigrants brought here as children does not mean that we should be arbitrary about making these decisions.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> What's the logic we'd use to deport someone brought here as an infant, who has known no other country but ours? We should not try to help clean up other peoples' mistakes. If you bring a newborn illegally into a country where they should not be, you're accepting the consequences not just for yourself, but the baby. The point is not we're deporting the baby, we're deporting the whole family and trying to deter future illegal immigration.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Again: I am not talking about newborns brought here illegally. I am talking about birthright citizens of the United States, owed all the same rights and protections as any other citizen.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    You're the one that said "brought here as an infant", not "born in the United States". And those babies born here have the same rights and protections. Either move to another country because your family is there or stay here without your family. Those are the rights that all citizens have.

pcwalton 10y ago

> Do they have a moral right to live in the United States? Probably not. Yes, they do. Everyone has a moral right not to be deported to somewhere they've never known, especially if it tears up families in the process, extra especially if it's ultimately just for bureaucratic reasons.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> Everyone has a moral right not to be deported to somewhere they've never known. That's the exact same argument people who live in any rapidly gentrifying neighborhood make. You do NOT have the moral right to live whereever you want, even if it's the only place you know. Fundamentally you live where you can afford and it's legal for you to live. You don't have the rights to any piece of land unless you have a deed, and even then, eminent domain can trump your rights.
- pcwalton 10y ago
  1. Out-of-control housing prices are also a moral problem. That's why it's such a hot-button issue, after all. The difference is that the housing market is a tough issue to solve, while the prospect of mass deportations is a very easy issue to solve: don't start mass deportations. 2. We're not talking about having to move across town. We're talking about being deported to a country you've never known. Being forcibly separated from your friends and family. Being unable to even visit them due to the mandatory 10-year ban on entering the United States after being deported. And again, since you mention legality, it was illegal for Japanese-Americans to live in their homes during World War II. Yet they had a right to do so.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    > don't start mass deportations. Hah. You're already confusing mass deportation as a moral problem, rather than a legal and policy problem. Should illegal immigrants be deported en masse? Should criminals be incarcerated en mass? > We're talking about being deported to a country you've never known. You're talking about children who were born in the states? They have a choice. Either stay in the states or go with their parents to another country. It's up to them, just like it's up to any other citizen. The children are not forced to leave.