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> Enforcing an unjust law can easily tip in human rights abuse; witness the various anti-Jewish laws promulgated in 1930s Germany. How odd, a Nazi/Hitler refer

> Enforcing an unjust law can easily tip in human rights abuse; witness the various anti-Jewish laws promulgated in 1930s Germany. How odd, a Nazi/Hitler reference. Who'd had thought that was coming? > Much of American immigration law is arguably unjust. It's the implementation that needs work. The law is the law. You said yourself "illegal abuses" and "wrongly reported". > Of course, maybe I've read you wrong and you're OK with some people having their rights violated If you're not a citizen, you don't have rights to due process, or many other rights that citizens are entitled to. You're fighting with one hand tied behind your back. You probably shouldn't be in a country that doesn't want you.

scarmig 10y ago
> If you're not a citizen, you don't have rights to due process, or many other rights that citizens are entitled to. Sigh. For the umpteenth time, the US Constitution does not stipulate that non-citizens are subhuman. The right of due process, as described in the Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Note that illegal immigrants are still people. The US Constitution does not define them ipso facto as subhuman.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law When you deport somebody, how exactly are you depriving them of life, liberty, or property?
  - scarmig 10y ago
    They aren't inherently being deprived of due process. But that's an irrelevant distraction from the actual claim you made that I was responding to, where you said that non-citizens do not have the right of due process. You're wrong. Point blank, you're wrong. They do have the right of due process, both by natural law and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Depends on exactly what you think liberty means I guess. Restricting freedom of movement is certainly contrary to many definitions of liberty.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    You previous response said that non-citizens were not entitled to due process. A speedy trial is part of that, under the Sixth Amendment: > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
abadidea 10y ago
> How odd, a Nazi/Hitler reference. Who'd had thought that was coming? Are you... seriously... trying to be all "wuh buh Godwin's Law froggle boggle" in December Two Thousand And Sixteen? Seriously dude bro? With all gravity pally pal? Ya mean it my man? Wow.
pcwalton 10y ago
> You probably shouldn't be in a country that doesn't want you. I happen to be in agreement with most Americans that people who have never known any country but the United States shouldn't be deported to countries they've never known.
anigbrowl 10y ago
How odd, a Nazi/Hitler reference. Who'd had thought that was coming? Why shouldn't I use the best available example when it's germane? Your rhetorical flourish is a clear attempt to duck the question. It's the implementation that needs work. The law is the law. You said yourself "illegal abuses" and "wrongly reported". Misdirection. Not all laws are of equal significance; a person who jay-walks is a criminal, but we see a vast qualitative difference between that activity and murder, for example. Cliches like 'The law is the law' are mere tautology, and inaccurate to boot - as any lawyer will readily confirm. You seem to forget that the Constitution speaks of equity as well as law. If you're not a citizen, you don't have rights to due process, or many other rights that citizens are entitled to. You're fighting with one hand tied behind your back. You probably shouldn't be in a country that doesn't want you. Wrong. Let's reread the 14th amendment to the Constitution: 'No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.' (emphasis added) Some Constitutional protections extend only to Citizens of the USA. Others extend to everyone within its jurisdiction. Would you like me to cite case law to drive home just how wrong you are?
jubalfh 10y ago
How odd, bringing up the past to explain the present.

scarmig 10y ago

> If you're not a citizen, you don't have rights to due process, or many other rights that citizens are entitled to. Sigh. For the umpteenth time, the US Constitution does not stipulate that non-citizens are subhuman. The right of due process, as described in the Fifth Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Note that illegal immigrants are still people. The US Constitution does not define them ipso facto as subhuman.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law When you deport somebody, how exactly are you depriving them of life, liberty, or property?
- scarmig 10y ago
  They aren't inherently being deprived of due process. But that's an irrelevant distraction from the actual claim you made that I was responding to, where you said that non-citizens do not have the right of due process. You're wrong. Point blank, you're wrong. They do have the right of due process, both by natural law and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Depends on exactly what you think liberty means I guess. Restricting freedom of movement is certainly contrary to many definitions of liberty.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  You previous response said that non-citizens were not entitled to due process. A speedy trial is part of that, under the Sixth Amendment: > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

abadidea 10y ago

> How odd, a Nazi/Hitler reference. Who'd had thought that was coming? Are you... seriously... trying to be all "wuh buh Godwin's Law froggle boggle" in December Two Thousand And Sixteen? Seriously dude bro? With all gravity pally pal? Ya mean it my man? Wow.

pcwalton 10y ago

> You probably shouldn't be in a country that doesn't want you. I happen to be in agreement with most Americans that people who have never known any country but the United States shouldn't be deported to countries they've never known.

anigbrowl 10y ago

How odd, a Nazi/Hitler reference. Who'd had thought that was coming? Why shouldn't I use the best available example when it's germane? Your rhetorical flourish is a clear attempt to duck the question. It's the implementation that needs work. The law is the law. You said yourself "illegal abuses" and "wrongly reported". Misdirection. Not all laws are of equal significance; a person who jay-walks is a criminal, but we see a vast qualitative difference between that activity and murder, for example. Cliches like 'The law is the law' are mere tautology, and inaccurate to boot - as any lawyer will readily confirm. You seem to forget that the Constitution speaks of equity as well as law. If you're not a citizen, you don't have rights to due process, or many other rights that citizens are entitled to. You're fighting with one hand tied behind your back. You probably shouldn't be in a country that doesn't want you. Wrong. Let's reread the 14th amendment to the Constitution: 'No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.' (emphasis added) Some Constitutional protections extend only to Citizens of the USA. Others extend to everyone within its jurisdiction. Would you like me to cite case law to drive home just how wrong you are?

jubalfh 10y ago

How odd, bringing up the past to explain the present.