4 ms·

It's amazing to me how much pushback is coming against the simple notion that as professionals we should follow some standard of ethics. Nobody is proposing th

It's amazing to me how much pushback is coming against the simple notion that as professionals we should follow some standard of ethics. Nobody is proposing that you need a credential to code. Just to be employed as a developer at a reputable tech company. This is hardly a novel idea. Many professions have professional associations.

tptacek 10y ago
It's important that both sides of this discussion remain civil and refrain from casting aspersions. This comment would be better without the "alt-right angle on HN" bit. Having misgivings about a code of ethics or about this pledge doesn't make someone an "alt-righter".
- morgante 10y ago
  > Having misgivings about a code of ethics or about this pledge doesn't make someone an "alt-righter". No, but ranting about illegal immigration (a totally tangential issue) does.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I'd encourage you to focus on the arguments rather than on attributing things to the people writing those arguments; if you must do that, have real evidence.
    - morgante 10y ago
      What exactly do you think is the substantive argument of "but illegal immigration?" Nothing in the article is about illegal immigration, nor is the discussion of a Muslim database about illegal immigration. It's a red herring. We already have immigration databases. This is how the alt-right derails discussion. They exploit our preference to treat all arguments as valid until we're at the point of debating whether mass deportation of ethnic/religious minorities is okay. The growing and vocal influence of the alt-right on HN should not be ignored.
  - internaut 10y ago
    I'd like to remind the citizens of HN that I and other alt-righters here are rarely guilty of inserting political articles into the News Feed of this website. Otherwise my posting history would probably include a tide of Drudge Report, Unz, Breitbart etc. I would expect a ban if I did that. Links to such websites are rarer than hen's teeth. The evidence is that many people on the other side of the isle are more than comfortable submitting articles from Daily Kos, Huffington Post and Salon.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    The pledge in TFA says "We refuse to facilitate mass deportations of people the government believes to be undesirable." Does this not refer to illegal immigration?
    - morgante 10y ago
      No, it refers to Muslims.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Thomas, I'm not that inclined to be civil towards people who are actively trying to harm me or my family. Quite a lot of the alt-right people, some of whom are open participants in HN, subscribe to an aggressive white nationalism with a declared agenda of ethnic cleansing and genocide. If you're in any doubt about this shoot me an email and I'll feed you evidence until you're sick of it.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    My politics on this particular issue are probably identical to yours. What I'm saying is that we should be careful not to attribute alt-rightness to people simply because they have misgivings about the pledge or disagreements about immigration policy. Ultimately, I believe there's a variant of this pledge that should pass the "moderate Republican" test. I recognize that the current pledge does not and I don't think that's because everyone who has an issue with this pledge is unreasonable or part of the alt-right. More importantly, though, civility is an iron law on HN. The right response to someone who is baiting you into incivility is to flag their comments and to point out that that's what they're doing without descending into incivility yourself.
    - morgante 10y ago
      > Ultimately, I believe there's a variant of this pledge that should pass the "moderate Republican" test. I recognize that the current pledge does not and I don't think that's because everyone who has an issue with this pledge is unreasonable or part of the alt-right. Why do you say that? I'm a reformed conservative, and most of the moderate Republicans I know agree that a database of Muslims is unethical and evil. > The right response to someone who is baiting you into incivility is to flag their comments and to point out that that's what they're doing without descending into incivility yourself. I don't think that helps much. Despite dang's best efforts HN is increasingly turning into a place where the alt-right feels at home.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        It's not optional, whether you believe it helps or not. Incivility on HN will almost certainly result in your comments being taken less seriously (especially as they plummet down the page and are ultimately flagged), and will eventually just result in your account being banned. That's happening consistently to the alt-righters I do see on HN. Why own-goal yourself by calling them names? Call out their arguments, flag their comments, but remain civil. Regarding moderate Republicans: I think we're talking past each other, and that we agree. It's the specific language of the pledge that I think is tricky for them, not the substance of it.

tptacek 10y ago

It's important that both sides of this discussion remain civil and refrain from casting aspersions. This comment would be better without the "alt-right angle on HN" bit. Having misgivings about a code of ethics or about this pledge doesn't make someone an "alt-righter".

morgante 10y ago
> Having misgivings about a code of ethics or about this pledge doesn't make someone an "alt-righter". No, but ranting about illegal immigration (a totally tangential issue) does.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I'd encourage you to focus on the arguments rather than on attributing things to the people writing those arguments; if you must do that, have real evidence.
  - morgante 10y ago
    What exactly do you think is the substantive argument of "but illegal immigration?" Nothing in the article is about illegal immigration, nor is the discussion of a Muslim database about illegal immigration. It's a red herring. We already have immigration databases. This is how the alt-right derails discussion. They exploit our preference to treat all arguments as valid until we're at the point of debating whether mass deportation of ethnic/religious minorities is okay. The growing and vocal influence of the alt-right on HN should not be ignored.
- internaut 10y ago
  I'd like to remind the citizens of HN that I and other alt-righters here are rarely guilty of inserting political articles into the News Feed of this website. Otherwise my posting history would probably include a tide of Drudge Report, Unz, Breitbart etc. I would expect a ban if I did that. Links to such websites are rarer than hen's teeth. The evidence is that many people on the other side of the isle are more than comfortable submitting articles from Daily Kos, Huffington Post and Salon.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  The pledge in TFA says "We refuse to facilitate mass deportations of people the government believes to be undesirable." Does this not refer to illegal immigration?
  - morgante 10y ago
    No, it refers to Muslims.
anigbrowl 10y ago
Thomas, I'm not that inclined to be civil towards people who are actively trying to harm me or my family. Quite a lot of the alt-right people, some of whom are open participants in HN, subscribe to an aggressive white nationalism with a declared agenda of ethnic cleansing and genocide. If you're in any doubt about this shoot me an email and I'll feed you evidence until you're sick of it.
- tptacek 10y ago
  My politics on this particular issue are probably identical to yours. What I'm saying is that we should be careful not to attribute alt-rightness to people simply because they have misgivings about the pledge or disagreements about immigration policy. Ultimately, I believe there's a variant of this pledge that should pass the "moderate Republican" test. I recognize that the current pledge does not and I don't think that's because everyone who has an issue with this pledge is unreasonable or part of the alt-right. More importantly, though, civility is an iron law on HN. The right response to someone who is baiting you into incivility is to flag their comments and to point out that that's what they're doing without descending into incivility yourself.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > Ultimately, I believe there's a variant of this pledge that should pass the "moderate Republican" test. I recognize that the current pledge does not and I don't think that's because everyone who has an issue with this pledge is unreasonable or part of the alt-right. Why do you say that? I'm a reformed conservative, and most of the moderate Republicans I know agree that a database of Muslims is unethical and evil. > The right response to someone who is baiting you into incivility is to flag their comments and to point out that that's what they're doing without descending into incivility yourself. I don't think that helps much. Despite dang's best efforts HN is increasingly turning into a place where the alt-right feels at home.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      It's not optional, whether you believe it helps or not. Incivility on HN will almost certainly result in your comments being taken less seriously (especially as they plummet down the page and are ultimately flagged), and will eventually just result in your account being banned. That's happening consistently to the alt-righters I do see on HN. Why own-goal yourself by calling them names? Call out their arguments, flag their comments, but remain civil. Regarding moderate Republicans: I think we're talking past each other, and that we agree. It's the specific language of the pledge that I think is tricky for them, not the substance of it.