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Unions aren't just about salaries, they're about resisting all sorts of unfair management bullshit. And developers may be "professionals" (that's kind of a load

Unions aren't just about salaries, they're about resisting all sorts of unfair management bullshit. And developers may be "professionals" (that's kind of a loaded fucking word; carpenters are professionals too, and they have unions), but we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime (oh, but we're exempt, that makes it okay? Fuck that.) I'm more concerned with ethics than salaries, too. Which is precisely why i think unions are important. Corporations have no ethics. Management has no ethics.

adrienne 10y ago
Both my examples did in fact mention "unpaid", but there are plenty of others. Unions would give us leverage against management asking us to do illegal or unethical shit. They wouldn't be able to just say, "Okay, won't write the Muslim Database code? You're fired! Next person!" Seriously, they are a solution to the whole set of problems here.
LyndsySimon 10y ago
> we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime Respectfully, I and many others do not believe that one can be a victim in a voluntary employment relationship.
- adrienne 10y ago
  Yes, and (not at all respectfully), speculating about why that is would probably get me banned for 'incivilty'. So i'll just say that notions of "voluntary" that don't account for the fact that people have to fucking eat aren't very useful.
burfog 10y ago
Suppose you were actually developing a muslim registry. You'd be at a government contractor. They are required to post notice of the "fraud, waste, and abuse" hotline. They are mostly prohibited from making you do unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime. Everyone would attend yearly ethics training.
- adrienne 10y ago
  Oh yeah, a whistleblower hotline - because that's going to be useful under a Trump presidency. And yes, government contractors mostly don't do unpaid work, but what good is "yearly ethics training" when you're already tasked with building a Muslim registry? I mean, that is in and of itself unethical! And if you quit, they'll just replace you with someone who's totally happy to build it. That's the whole reason people are discussing some kind of professional organization.
  - burfog 10y ago
    You call the "waste, fraud, and abuse" hotline if you find your employer sabotaging the muslim registry. It'll work, even under a Trump presidency. Your employer wouldn't even be allowed to retaliate. Many would say that it is unethical when you don't take every reasonable measure to protect America. The yearly ethics training might help you with this. The professional organization might reject unamerican activities. For example, if you fail to help America whenever appropriately compensated, you get ejected from the organization. At the very least, any organization with a supposed "ethics" code in opposition to American security is obviously not going to get the sort of support ("must be a member") that it would need.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Oh, you mean people will whistleblow on the good guys? That's very true, and an unavoidable hazard. "unamerican activities". Oh, you're one of those. Okay, sorry i wasted my time on you. Bye.

adrienne 10y ago

Both my examples did in fact mention "unpaid", but there are plenty of others. Unions would give us leverage against management asking us to do illegal or unethical shit. They wouldn't be able to just say, "Okay, won't write the Muslim Database code? You're fired! Next person!" Seriously, they are a solution to the whole set of problems here.

LyndsySimon 10y ago

> we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime Respectfully, I and many others do not believe that one can be a victim in a voluntary employment relationship.

adrienne 10y ago
Yes, and (not at all respectfully), speculating about why that is would probably get me banned for 'incivilty'. So i'll just say that notions of "voluntary" that don't account for the fact that people have to fucking eat aren't very useful.

burfog 10y ago

Suppose you were actually developing a muslim registry. You'd be at a government contractor. They are required to post notice of the "fraud, waste, and abuse" hotline. They are mostly prohibited from making you do unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime. Everyone would attend yearly ethics training.

adrienne 10y ago
Oh yeah, a whistleblower hotline - because that's going to be useful under a Trump presidency. And yes, government contractors mostly don't do unpaid work, but what good is "yearly ethics training" when you're already tasked with building a Muslim registry? I mean, that is in and of itself unethical! And if you quit, they'll just replace you with someone who's totally happy to build it. That's the whole reason people are discussing some kind of professional organization.
- burfog 10y ago
  You call the "waste, fraud, and abuse" hotline if you find your employer sabotaging the muslim registry. It'll work, even under a Trump presidency. Your employer wouldn't even be allowed to retaliate. Many would say that it is unethical when you don't take every reasonable measure to protect America. The yearly ethics training might help you with this. The professional organization might reject unamerican activities. For example, if you fail to help America whenever appropriately compensated, you get ejected from the organization. At the very least, any organization with a supposed "ethics" code in opposition to American security is obviously not going to get the sort of support ("must be a member") that it would need.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    Oh, you mean people will whistleblow on the good guys? That's very true, and an unavoidable hazard. "unamerican activities". Oh, you're one of those. Okay, sorry i wasted my time on you. Bye.