7 ms·

> We need a code of ethics for software developers Since you went there, we also need a Union to protect our rights and prevent overtime abuse (esp. at Startup

> We need a code of ethics for software developers Since you went there, we also need a Union to protect our rights and prevent overtime abuse (esp. at Startups).

morgante 10y ago
No we don't. Please don't bring in unrelated issues to muddle the waters. We can have a professional association without having a union.
- adrienne 10y ago
  Sure, but we still need a union, too. Just because a large proportion of capitalism-worshipping Hacker News bros think unions are eeeeeevil is no reason we should shut up about them.
  - morgante 10y ago
    For the time being I'd rather focus on a professional association, since talk of unions will send those capitalist bros running for the hills (and I think ethics are more important than protecting our salaries). Also I think we're professionals. Doctors and engineers are doing just fine without unionizing.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Unions aren't just about salaries, they're about resisting all sorts of unfair management bullshit. And developers may be "professionals" (that's kind of a loaded fucking word; carpenters are professionals too, and they have unions), but we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime (oh, but we're exempt, that makes it okay? Fuck that.) I'm more concerned with ethics than salaries, too. Which is precisely why i think unions are important. Corporations have no ethics. Management has no ethics.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        Both my examples did in fact mention "unpaid", but there are plenty of others. Unions would give us leverage against management asking us to do illegal or unethical shit. They wouldn't be able to just say, "Okay, won't write the Muslim Database code? You're fired! Next person!" Seriously, they are a solution to the whole set of problems here.
      - LyndsySimon 10y ago
        > we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime Respectfully, I and many others do not believe that one can be a victim in a voluntary employment relationship.
        adrienne 10y ago
        Yes, and (not at all respectfully), speculating about why that is would probably get me banned for 'incivilty'. So i'll just say that notions of "voluntary" that don't account for the fact that people have to fucking eat aren't very useful.
      - burfog 10y ago
        Suppose you were actually developing a muslim registry. You'd be at a government contractor. They are required to post notice of the "fraud, waste, and abuse" hotline. They are mostly prohibited from making you do unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime. Everyone would attend yearly ethics training.
        adrienne 10y ago
        Oh yeah, a whistleblower hotline - because that's going to be useful under a Trump presidency. And yes, government contractors mostly don't do unpaid work, but what good is "yearly ethics training" when you're already tasked with building a Muslim registry? I mean, that is in and of itself unethical! And if you quit, they'll just replace you with someone who's totally happy to build it. That's the whole reason people are discussing some kind of professional organization.
wcummings 10y ago
This. Union is a dirty word in Silly Valley but after a few decades of "management" making our work cheaper and more fungible SWE's will realize we're not special and subject to market forces like everyone else. We don't even have the benefit of being hard to outsource like some service-oriented professions. We're fucked TBH. SWE's are becoming more specialized, and our work more standardized, prerequisites for an assembly line. Get ready, folks, we're the new auto-workers.
quotemstr 10y ago
Marketing protip: call your proposal a "guild" (as in the Writer's Guild of America) instead of a "union" and you'll wash off a lot of the blue-collar stigma.

> We need a code of ethics for software developers Since you went there, we also need a Union to protect our rights and prevent overtime abuse (esp. at Startups).

morgante 10y ago

No we don't. Please don't bring in unrelated issues to muddle the waters. We can have a professional association without having a union.

adrienne 10y ago
Sure, but we still need a union, too. Just because a large proportion of capitalism-worshipping Hacker News bros think unions are eeeeeevil is no reason we should shut up about them.
- morgante 10y ago
  For the time being I'd rather focus on a professional association, since talk of unions will send those capitalist bros running for the hills (and I think ethics are more important than protecting our salaries). Also I think we're professionals. Doctors and engineers are doing just fine without unionizing.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    Unions aren't just about salaries, they're about resisting all sorts of unfair management bullshit. And developers may be "professionals" (that's kind of a loaded fucking word; carpenters are professionals too, and they have unions), but we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime (oh, but we're exempt, that makes it okay? Fuck that.) I'm more concerned with ethics than salaries, too. Which is precisely why i think unions are important. Corporations have no ethics. Management has no ethics.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Both my examples did in fact mention "unpaid", but there are plenty of others. Unions would give us leverage against management asking us to do illegal or unethical shit. They wouldn't be able to just say, "Okay, won't write the Muslim Database code? You're fired! Next person!" Seriously, they are a solution to the whole set of problems here.
    - LyndsySimon 10y ago
      > we are also the victims of a lot of unfair management bullshit, including unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime Respectfully, I and many others do not believe that one can be a victim in a voluntary employment relationship.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        Yes, and (not at all respectfully), speculating about why that is would probably get me banned for 'incivilty'. So i'll just say that notions of "voluntary" that don't account for the fact that people have to fucking eat aren't very useful.
    - burfog 10y ago
      Suppose you were actually developing a muslim registry. You'd be at a government contractor. They are required to post notice of the "fraud, waste, and abuse" hotline. They are mostly prohibited from making you do unpaid on-call time and mandatory unpaid overtime. Everyone would attend yearly ethics training.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        Oh yeah, a whistleblower hotline - because that's going to be useful under a Trump presidency. And yes, government contractors mostly don't do unpaid work, but what good is "yearly ethics training" when you're already tasked with building a Muslim registry? I mean, that is in and of itself unethical! And if you quit, they'll just replace you with someone who's totally happy to build it. That's the whole reason people are discussing some kind of professional organization.

wcummings 10y ago

This. Union is a dirty word in Silly Valley but after a few decades of "management" making our work cheaper and more fungible SWE's will realize we're not special and subject to market forces like everyone else. We don't even have the benefit of being hard to outsource like some service-oriented professions. We're fucked TBH. SWE's are becoming more specialized, and our work more standardized, prerequisites for an assembly line. Get ready, folks, we're the new auto-workers.

quotemstr 10y ago

Marketing protip: call your proposal a "guild" (as in the Writer's Guild of America) instead of a "union" and you'll wash off a lot of the blue-collar stigma.