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The Schelling model for racial segregation is a great little agent-based model demonstrating one complex systems idea. There's a nice browser version here: http

The Schelling model for racial segregation is a great little agent-based model demonstrating one complex systems idea. There's a nice browser version here: http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segregation/ http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segreg...

Baeocystin 10y ago
Neat. I think I will show this to my more SJW-ish friends, simply to demonstrate that there is more than one model that could account for population self-segregation other than someone being hateful or racist.
- pja 10y ago
  Don’t be a jerk about it though - just because there may be non-racist reasons for segregation to have occurred doesn’t mean that there weren’t outright racist reasons too: sundown towns were a thing in the supposedly “enlightened” north-east for a start & undoing the effects of those racist policies doesn’t happen overnight.
  - SiVal 10y ago
    The existence of segregation is repeatedly cited as PROOF of racist oppression and anyone who says otherwise denounced as racist. The fact that segregation can easily emerge even with no oppression at all means that segregation alone is not sufficient to prove that any injustice has been committed at all much less that injustice/oppression/racism is the primary cause of the segregation.
    - infinite8s 10y ago
      However, there is a difference between explicit segregation (black people can't use this bathroom or school, redlining) and the type that arises naturally from interactions between people.
    - Angostura 10y ago
      Cited as evidence perhaps. I would like to see these repeated assertions of proof.
      - Baeocystin 10y ago
        Have a conversation with left-leaning, progressive college student. I wouldn't even have ever heard the term SJW, or be aware of how modern progressivism is so different from the liberal attitudes of my youth, if I didn't have younger family still in college.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Housing segregation is extremely complex and multifaceted, I'm not sure anyone ever claimed otherwise. Most of the causes are probably due to ripple effects of historic policies.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    I agree with what you're saying. My biggest desire is simply to get them to understand that reasonable people can just plain disagree on something, and that that doesn't necessarily make either one 'bad', because the real world is more complex than any one mental model.
- ealexhudson 10y ago
  I'm not sure it's as relevant as you seem to think. For one, the distribution of the population was never initially "random". But second, the idea of boiling it down to "how satisfied are they" being the same as "there's enough people like them around them" is pretty close to what people are saying is happening anyway: sure there is "self-segregation" happening because people want to be close to their families, but "white flight" is a thing too. Racism comes in a huge variety of different hues, but when one population is segregated in the nice neighborhoods and another is segregated around the not-so-nice, I find it difficult to accept that self-satisfaction with the number of similar neighbors is much of a driving factor of anything.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    Don't misunderstand- I am certainly not claiming that racism isn't an issue! My only goal is to try and get them to see the world as something more complex than the 'agree with everything we say or you're literally Hitler' dichotomy that currently appears to be popular in elements of the modern left. (Perhaps I find this particularly frustrating, as I am left-leaning myself.) The concept that reasonable people can disagree is something that I think everyone, regardless of political persuasion, should keep in mind. And part of learning that is seeing how multiple models, even simple toy ones like this example, can explain large-scale behaviors in ways other than one's currently-held belief, whatever that may be.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  That's not the lesson I got there - the key points are 1. Small personal biases lead to large collective biases 2. Unless people are unhappy and actively willing to move when segregated prior; segregation is the steady state. i.e. White flight exists, but the inverse does not.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    I don't disagree. I think your first point is particularly salient. What I want them to understand is shades of degree.
- Intermernet 10y ago
  The question then is "do the different reasons for population segregation lead to different results?" A community of people sharing a common language and heritage may just lead to pleasant dinner parties for them, and an eventual cultural blending for the kids and grand-kids. A community segregated around a common feeling of oppression or discrimination may end up fomenting hatred and violence in response. The segregation isn't the problem, the reasons are.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    Yes! And I want them to understand that. Many of them aren't there yet.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pja 10y ago
Vi Hart & Nicky Case wrote a web page demonstrating the same effect: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/

Baeocystin 10y ago

Neat. I think I will show this to my more SJW-ish friends, simply to demonstrate that there is more than one model that could account for population self-segregation other than someone being hateful or racist.

pja 10y ago
Don’t be a jerk about it though - just because there may be non-racist reasons for segregation to have occurred doesn’t mean that there weren’t outright racist reasons too: sundown towns were a thing in the supposedly “enlightened” north-east for a start & undoing the effects of those racist policies doesn’t happen overnight.
- SiVal 10y ago
  The existence of segregation is repeatedly cited as PROOF of racist oppression and anyone who says otherwise denounced as racist. The fact that segregation can easily emerge even with no oppression at all means that segregation alone is not sufficient to prove that any injustice has been committed at all much less that injustice/oppression/racism is the primary cause of the segregation.
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    However, there is a difference between explicit segregation (black people can't use this bathroom or school, redlining) and the type that arises naturally from interactions between people.
  - Angostura 10y ago
    Cited as evidence perhaps. I would like to see these repeated assertions of proof.
    - Baeocystin 10y ago
      Have a conversation with left-leaning, progressive college student. I wouldn't even have ever heard the term SJW, or be aware of how modern progressivism is so different from the liberal attitudes of my youth, if I didn't have younger family still in college.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Housing segregation is extremely complex and multifaceted, I'm not sure anyone ever claimed otherwise. Most of the causes are probably due to ripple effects of historic policies.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  I agree with what you're saying. My biggest desire is simply to get them to understand that reasonable people can just plain disagree on something, and that that doesn't necessarily make either one 'bad', because the real world is more complex than any one mental model.
ealexhudson 10y ago
I'm not sure it's as relevant as you seem to think. For one, the distribution of the population was never initially "random". But second, the idea of boiling it down to "how satisfied are they" being the same as "there's enough people like them around them" is pretty close to what people are saying is happening anyway: sure there is "self-segregation" happening because people want to be close to their families, but "white flight" is a thing too. Racism comes in a huge variety of different hues, but when one population is segregated in the nice neighborhoods and another is segregated around the not-so-nice, I find it difficult to accept that self-satisfaction with the number of similar neighbors is much of a driving factor of anything.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  Don't misunderstand- I am certainly not claiming that racism isn't an issue! My only goal is to try and get them to see the world as something more complex than the 'agree with everything we say or you're literally Hitler' dichotomy that currently appears to be popular in elements of the modern left. (Perhaps I find this particularly frustrating, as I am left-leaning myself.) The concept that reasonable people can disagree is something that I think everyone, regardless of political persuasion, should keep in mind. And part of learning that is seeing how multiple models, even simple toy ones like this example, can explain large-scale behaviors in ways other than one's currently-held belief, whatever that may be.
sangnoir 10y ago
That's not the lesson I got there - the key points are 1. Small personal biases lead to large collective biases 2. Unless people are unhappy and actively willing to move when segregated prior; segregation is the steady state. i.e. White flight exists, but the inverse does not.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  I don't disagree. I think your first point is particularly salient. What I want them to understand is shades of degree.
Intermernet 10y ago
The question then is "do the different reasons for population segregation lead to different results?" A community of people sharing a common language and heritage may just lead to pleasant dinner parties for them, and an eventual cultural blending for the kids and grand-kids. A community segregated around a common feeling of oppression or discrimination may end up fomenting hatred and violence in response. The segregation isn't the problem, the reasons are.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  Yes! And I want them to understand that. Many of them aren't there yet.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pja 10y ago

Vi Hart & Nicky Case wrote a web page demonstrating the same effect: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/