5 ms·

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's parent(s) and the teacher. In China things do not work this way. Every test - and there are a lot of them - is publicly ranked. There will be a very large poster at the back of the classroom with the ranking on it. The parents' meeting is a meeting for all parents of that class together. A teacher will read the ranking aloud on the stage to all parents. The top pupils will be invited onto the stage and receive praise, which is alright. But the bottom pupils will also be invited onto the stage and receive criticism - in front of all peers and their parents. The idea here is to motivate them work harder to avoid the shaming - or to motivate their parents to push them harder to avoid the shaming. It may work for some. But I see more harm done than good here.

cesarbs 10y ago
Are test scores calculated relative to the top performer - so that there will always be bottom performers - or is there a bar that everyone could clear so no student would be shamed?
- blacktulip 10y ago
  That's the teacher's call. If consistently underperform pupil once underperformed less he/she may even get praised. On the other hand. If a top 3 pupil ranked 10 once, he/she may receive some shaming. Different teachers have different styles And of course. Some teachers won't shame pupils at all. But the rankings are always public. No one can change that.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  There are always bottom performers.
- Cerium 10y ago
  Doesn't matter which way they are calculated. Names are listed in order of performance. Additionally, at least some schools place students into classes based on previous years rank.
mratzloff 10y ago
Yes. One can draw a direct line between shame-based cultures and an unwillingness to take risks for fear of failure. The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation. Maybe not Silicon-Valley-type innovation, but there have been plenty of innovations out of China's very long history. Even in more recent times, I remember reading an article about Chinese research into floor tiles that can identify people as they walk via weight and shear. This was 6-10 years ago, I don't know whatever happened to that project. Edit: I will posit that the people who take risks in the Valley do so not because of 'culture', but because they are well-off and/or well-connected and can afford to fail in terms of time and money.
- eva1984 10y ago
  Japan and Korea pretty much did the same thing, and they are not accused of lack innovation. And China is not actually lack of innovation nowadays, catch-up maybe but a strong player already. There is nothing inherently in Chinese culture that prevents innovation. Innovated people gonna innovate, when they got the resources they need. Poor country usually aren't very innovative, and China has become much richer at national level. To bet, there will be more innovations from China than not for the next several decades.
_audakel 10y ago
> cruel def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. Shaming is undesirable, but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works - in sports you see exact stats of how your do, publicly traded companies/CEOs are meticulously analysed publicly on how they perform etc. etc. There does need to be a balance btwn hypercompetiton, and "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. I feel like the US has swung far to one side and china the other. Best would be some where in the middle. Maybe have a live list of the top 10-15% of student scores. I am a parent, and don't want to hurt my daughter, but at the same time a little pain and suffering makes you stronger.
- blacktulip 10y ago
  I agree with you here. I used the word cruel since I couldn't find a better word - as a none native speaker my vocabulary is limited :( . I have the same feelings about the UK public education. Competition is basically non-existence. I wonder why people can't settle in a middle ground.
  - Qantourisc 10y ago
    > def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. willfully: check; suffering: check (the shaming); no concern: check. Actor: state/school as a whole. So I think it applies.
    - _audakel 10y ago
      I think this is sum of the parts different than the whole. I was just pointing out that cruel has a very negative connotation ie - inhuman, barbaric, sadistic, evil, abominable etc. Applying it in the previous use case seemed excessive and implied a more radical tone than I believe the author (as he mentioned) wanted.
  - walshemj 10y ago
    Really seen Ofsted's league tables which are published as are the rankings of the public (private) schools?
edblarney 10y ago
"The idea here is to motivate them work harder to avoid the shaming - or to motivate their parents to push them harder to avoid the shaming. It may work for some. But I see more harm done than good here." Yes, I think that this is very counterproductive. Finnish kids don't even go to school until age of 7 - and they do as well as the top chinese students.
cloudwizard 10y ago
In the US, it is the same. I had no idea how my son was doing other than his teacher was lying to me. At the beginning of the year, it is impossible to do better than the middle. Not sure if the reasoning was so the children can show improvement? I knew he was doing better than the middle but how well he was doing was a mystery.
- panzagl 10y ago
  Unfortunately you may be seeing the side effects of the recent rush to quantify teacher performance- in most states a teacher now must show a year's improvement for all of their students, no matter how high or low they are when they start the year. And since children tend to develop in fits and starts instead of a nice linear progression, you can imagine that the system may tend to be gamed.

cesarbs 10y ago

Are test scores calculated relative to the top performer - so that there will always be bottom performers - or is there a bar that everyone could clear so no student would be shamed?

blacktulip 10y ago
That's the teacher's call. If consistently underperform pupil once underperformed less he/she may even get praised. On the other hand. If a top 3 pupil ranked 10 once, he/she may receive some shaming. Different teachers have different styles And of course. Some teachers won't shame pupils at all. But the rankings are always public. No one can change that.
xiaoma 10y ago
There are always bottom performers.
Cerium 10y ago
Doesn't matter which way they are calculated. Names are listed in order of performance. Additionally, at least some schools place students into classes based on previous years rank.

mratzloff 10y ago

Yes. One can draw a direct line between shame-based cultures and an unwillingness to take risks for fear of failure. The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation.

sangnoir 10y ago
> The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation. Maybe not Silicon-Valley-type innovation, but there have been plenty of innovations out of China's very long history. Even in more recent times, I remember reading an article about Chinese research into floor tiles that can identify people as they walk via weight and shear. This was 6-10 years ago, I don't know whatever happened to that project. Edit: I will posit that the people who take risks in the Valley do so not because of 'culture', but because they are well-off and/or well-connected and can afford to fail in terms of time and money.
eva1984 10y ago
Japan and Korea pretty much did the same thing, and they are not accused of lack innovation. And China is not actually lack of innovation nowadays, catch-up maybe but a strong player already. There is nothing inherently in Chinese culture that prevents innovation. Innovated people gonna innovate, when they got the resources they need. Poor country usually aren't very innovative, and China has become much richer at national level. To bet, there will be more innovations from China than not for the next several decades.

_audakel 10y ago

> cruel def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. Shaming is undesirable, but I wouldn't say publicly knowing how you rank compared to others would constitute "cruel". Its really how the world works - in sports you see exact stats of how your do, publicly traded companies/CEOs are meticulously analysed publicly on how they perform etc. etc. There does need to be a balance btwn hypercompetiton, and "everyone gets a trophy" mentality. I feel like the US has swung far to one side and china the other. Best would be some where in the middle. Maybe have a live list of the top 10-15% of student scores. I am a parent, and don't want to hurt my daughter, but at the same time a little pain and suffering makes you stronger.

blacktulip 10y ago
I agree with you here. I used the word cruel since I couldn't find a better word - as a none native speaker my vocabulary is limited :( . I have the same feelings about the UK public education. Competition is basically non-existence. I wonder why people can't settle in a middle ground.
- Qantourisc 10y ago
  > def: willfully causing pain or suffering to others, feeling no concern about it. willfully: check; suffering: check (the shaming); no concern: check. Actor: state/school as a whole. So I think it applies.
  - _audakel 10y ago
    I think this is sum of the parts different than the whole. I was just pointing out that cruel has a very negative connotation ie - inhuman, barbaric, sadistic, evil, abominable etc. Applying it in the previous use case seemed excessive and implied a more radical tone than I believe the author (as he mentioned) wanted.
- walshemj 10y ago
  Really seen Ofsted's league tables which are published as are the rankings of the public (private) schools?

edblarney 10y ago

"The idea here is to motivate them work harder to avoid the shaming - or to motivate their parents to push them harder to avoid the shaming. It may work for some. But I see more harm done than good here." Yes, I think that this is very counterproductive. Finnish kids don't even go to school until age of 7 - and they do as well as the top chinese students.

cloudwizard 10y ago

In the US, it is the same. I had no idea how my son was doing other than his teacher was lying to me. At the beginning of the year, it is impossible to do better than the middle. Not sure if the reasoning was so the children can show improvement? I knew he was doing better than the middle but how well he was doing was a mystery.

panzagl 10y ago
Unfortunately you may be seeing the side effects of the recent rush to quantify teacher performance- in most states a teacher now must show a year's improvement for all of their students, no matter how high or low they are when they start the year. And since children tend to develop in fits and starts instead of a nice linear progression, you can imagine that the system may tend to be gamed.