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You can also view this more charitably: I think people advocating for UBI far away from the workers it would affect don't realize how patronizing and aggressive

by bbctol 10y ago

You can also view this more charitably: I think people advocating for UBI far away from the workers it would affect don't realize how patronizing and aggressive it is. If somebody has been working a job for thirty years, a difficult, skilled job that people depend on, and is then suddenly told "here's your allowance, now study hard" by someone who was lucky enough to get their studying out of the way when they were a kid, it's not just "hurting self-esteem," it's directly destroying their source of dignity. Moreover, those in power control the companies that they can spend their basic income at, and the elite institutions they'll need to suck up to if they want to enter that world: the income enables survival, but there's no real power there. If you go to "middle America," you'll find an awful lot of people willing and happy to find new jobs that require "changing their interests" and "challenging themselves intellectually," but face constant setbacks not just financially but from distant organizations that don't see their potential. People don't want the same job their grandpa had, they want a job--not a couple dollars to keep them alive and powerless.

wahern 10y ago
"it's directly destroying their source of dignity." I understand that. Much of family is in that boat, and I understand their perspective. I grew up poor (homeless on a couple of occasions). I started working 20 hours a week at the age 14 washing dishes and cooking, and have always held a steady job, often to my own detriment (should have spent more time studying). I understand that people in immobile economic situations struggle to maintain a sense of dignity and autonomy. But life will destroy your sense of dignity when you put yourself out there. Ask anyone who completed law school, as I did. Success and humiliation often go hand-in-hand. Poor people don't understand that well enough. So I understand and appreciate the argument about dignity. But if my treatment of that argument seems less than sympathetic, it's because I've learned that people _should_ learn to disentangle their sense of personal dignity from their economic circumstance and social status. Appealing to their culturally-informed sense of dignity is the same excuse Islamic terrorists use to excuse their heinous acts. At the same time, I know that that sense is real (however "wrong" it may be), and that it substantially effects the viability of UBI, just like it does peace in the Middle East. And there are similar issues that go unaddressed by UBI, such as the necessity to channel people into constructive activities. Bare economic necessity already does that, and it's not clear how that could be replaced. We don't want armies of citizen sleuths spending their idle time shooting up imaginary pizza parlor child pornography fronts.

by bbctol 10y ago

wahern 10y ago

"it's directly destroying their source of dignity." I understand that. Much of family is in that boat, and I understand their perspective. I grew up poor (homeless on a couple of occasions). I started working 20 hours a week at the age 14 washing dishes and cooking, and have always held a steady job, often to my own detriment (should have spent more time studying). I understand that people in immobile economic situations struggle to maintain a sense of dignity and autonomy. But life will destroy your sense of dignity when you put yourself out there. Ask anyone who completed law school, as I did. Success and humiliation often go hand-in-hand. Poor people don't understand that well enough. So I understand and appreciate the argument about dignity. But if my treatment of that argument seems less than sympathetic, it's because I've learned that people _should_ learn to disentangle their sense of personal dignity from their economic circumstance and social status. Appealing to their culturally-informed sense of dignity is the same excuse Islamic terrorists use to excuse their heinous acts. At the same time, I know that that sense is real (however "wrong" it may be), and that it substantially effects the viability of UBI, just like it does peace in the Middle East. And there are similar issues that go unaddressed by UBI, such as the necessity to channel people into constructive activities. Bare economic necessity already does that, and it's not clear how that could be replaced. We don't want armies of citizen sleuths spending their idle time shooting up imaginary pizza parlor child pornography fronts.