7 ms·

> and it has not been my experience with any of them that the State has come in at all, let alone refused to leave. My friend got trapped with a court order f

by tcj_phx 10y ago

> and it has not been my experience with any of them that the State has come in at all, let alone refused to leave. My friend got trapped with a court order for treatment - see my comment history. Most of the drugs her psychiatrists force her to take actually cause the conditions they supposedly treat. The doctors pretend that her condition was not caused by the street pharmacy, or by her efforts to counteract the akathisia (restlessness caused by neuroleptics aka tranquilizers aka "anti-psychotics"). http://www.psychrights.org http://www.psychrights.org is a great resource for those who are concerned about being stripped of the right to refuse ineffective medical care.

JBReefer 10y ago
I believe you. That said, my friend just tried to kill herself because she couldn't get anyone, including the State, to help her with BPD. There's also a TON of literature about how the inability to voluntarily commit family members is horrific for everyone around them, including innocent bystanders. This is probably the most moving: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy-father-actually-lost-his-mind.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy-fat...
- tptacek 10y ago
  The acute mental health care system in the US is a travesty, something I believe we'll look back on in 50 years with horror. I don't doubt it has some effectiveness and that it ultimately helps many people, but I wouldn't want to be the person mounting the argument that it is blameless or unfairly maligned; it isn't maligned enough. But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture.
  - tcj_phx 10y ago
    > But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture. This is not what I've observed. If you have a court order for outpatient treatment and miss your appointments, they'll issue an arrest warrant, for example.
    - JBReefer 10y ago
      I really, really wish that was true. I have done a ton of work with the homeless, and so many have very serious mental health issues. Where I worked, we had a holistic approach with therapists, case workers, social workers (for benefits and housing), and sometimes the police - it did basically nothing. In the thousands of people I worked with, I never once saw what you described, despite the pro bono effort of high-power Manhattan lawyers. People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication.
      - tcj_phx 10y ago
        What state are you in? Laws vary... > and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication. My observation is that most of the commonly-used medications make the patient worse. This is confirmed by the epidemiological research. See Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic [1], for example. [1] http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitaker.org/Anatomy%20of%20an%20Epidemic.html http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitaker.org/Anatomy%20of%20...
        tptacek 10y ago
        I think we all want to be very careful using HN comments to relate medical advice.
      - snikeris 10y ago
        > People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication. I think there is a bit of an ethical quandary here. Perhaps the person prefers their unmedicated state and although their life is a mess from your perspective, they are in fact acting under their own volition. The act of feeding someone pills against their will because you're sure it's better for them is...ethically treacherous.
        10y ago

by tcj_phx 10y ago

JBReefer 10y ago

I believe you. That said, my friend just tried to kill herself because she couldn't get anyone, including the State, to help her with BPD. There's also a TON of literature about how the inability to voluntarily commit family members is horrific for everyone around them, including innocent bystanders. This is probably the most moving: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy-father-actually-lost-his-mind.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy-fat...

tptacek 10y ago
The acute mental health care system in the US is a travesty, something I believe we'll look back on in 50 years with horror. I don't doubt it has some effectiveness and that it ultimately helps many people, but I wouldn't want to be the person mounting the argument that it is blameless or unfairly maligned; it isn't maligned enough. But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture.
- tcj_phx 10y ago
  > But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture. This is not what I've observed. If you have a court order for outpatient treatment and miss your appointments, they'll issue an arrest warrant, for example.
  - JBReefer 10y ago
    I really, really wish that was true. I have done a ton of work with the homeless, and so many have very serious mental health issues. Where I worked, we had a holistic approach with therapists, case workers, social workers (for benefits and housing), and sometimes the police - it did basically nothing. In the thousands of people I worked with, I never once saw what you described, despite the pro bono effort of high-power Manhattan lawyers. People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication.
    - tcj_phx 10y ago
      What state are you in? Laws vary... > and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication. My observation is that most of the commonly-used medications make the patient worse. This is confirmed by the epidemiological research. See Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic [1], for example. [1] http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitaker.org/Anatomy%20of%20an%20Epidemic.html http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitaker.org/Anatomy%20of%20...
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I think we all want to be very careful using HN comments to relate medical advice.
    - snikeris 10y ago
      > People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication. I think there is a bit of an ethical quandary here. Perhaps the person prefers their unmedicated state and although their life is a mess from your perspective, they are in fact acting under their own volition. The act of feeding someone pills against their will because you're sure it's better for them is...ethically treacherous.
      - 10y ago