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> That said I suspect most people would be better off learning a good IDE properly, including but not limited to: To be clear, do you think a "good IDE" is inh

> That said I suspect most people would be better off learning a good IDE properly, including but not limited to: To be clear, do you think a "good IDE" is inherently better than Vim/Kako for most people? Personally i don't see a difference in a GUI based editor and a text based editor. In fact, i quite prefer text based, because it forces an editor to treat the keyboard as a first class citizen - GUI IDEs can get lazy and revert to mouse whenever they please. I can see the argument that Vim might not be inherently as good as a "good" GUI editor, but i don't think that is a negative towards the potential of text based editors. It just means that we need new editors to focus on the UX, imo. With that said, i'll be quite glad that we're moving towards standardizing (of sorts) a code editor protocol so that new editors don't suffer from lack of tooling. It will be great to see a single set of tooling (formatting, linting, imports, syntax checking, etc) plug into any new editor that might pop up. Switching editors has enough friction, tooling shouldn't be one.

reitanqild 10y ago
To be clear, do you think a "good IDE" is inherently better than Vim/Kako for most people? Right now, for most people: very much yes. Personally i don't see a difference in a GUI based editor and a text based editor. In fact, i quite prefer text based, because it forces an editor to treat the keyboard as a first class citizen - GUI IDEs can get lazy and revert to mouse whenever they please. Fair point. However: Between the default keybindings of Netbeans on Windows or Linux and the simplicity of customising it to my hearts content I haven't found any reason to abandon it. I can see the argument that Vim might not be inherently as good as a "good" GUI editor, but i don't think that is a negative towards the potential of text based editors. It just means that we need new editors to focus on the UX, imo. Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years.
- notheguyouthink 10y ago
  > Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years. Yea, i definitely agree there. It's also that GUI IDEs tend to cater towards.. well, a different crowd. What that means in real world terms in often a product with rough edges, confusing patterns, and a horribly steep learning curve. I enjoy seeing products and languages (programming) focus on learning as core feature of the product. It really is inherently important to a projects success.
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    Meanwhile, Git has taken over all source control for development despite being possibly one of the worst applications ever created. (Hell, even Lotus Notes tried to be usable-- it failed, but it tried.) It's a lost cause in this industry.
- wtetzner 10y ago
  > Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years. You say that, but somehow I still find the UX of every IDE I've tried to be lacking. I much prefer the UX of Emacs.
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    You spent (likely) years learning Emacs. How much time did you spend learning each of those IDEs you've tried? You have to realize that psychologically: you like things you're familiar with, and dislike things you're unfamiliar with. That's how top-40 radio works. That's why everybody bitches over every new software update, even when the new version is provably better. So of course you like the thing you spent years with over the thing you tried to learn for a week and a half then gave up on because Emacs is better. That has nothing to do with UX.
    - wtetzner 10y ago
      I've spent years in Eclipse as well (and still use it every day at work for Java stuff), and I appreciate a lot of the functionality it offers, but I definitely find the UX lacking. It's klunky. Yes, it's maybe more discoverable (although, at least in the case of Ecipse, that's debatable) and some of the keybindings are probably more familiar to most people, but I find that even though Emacs has a bit of a learning curve, once you've gotten past that, the experience of actually using it is very fluid and productive.
marktangotango 10y ago
The core "IDE" features you don't normally get with an editor are things like project views, intellisense, code completion as you type, real time parsing and error highlight, code navigation. Sure you can get most all of this by wrangling plugins for vim (or which ever editor you choose) but in an IDE like eclipse, netbeans, intellij, visual studio, it's all there, ready to go. In effect, a modern IDE is "programming ability" multiplier. It helps me code smarter and faster. That plus understanding what's going on behind the scenes is a powerful combination.
- notheguyouthink 10y ago
  Note, it sounds like Kakoune is trying to be a text and code editor first. Not just a text editor, like Vim is out of the box. Completion and code related tools appear to be first class citizens. With that said, it's purely speculative on my part, i clearly don't know - Kakoune is new to me.
- wtetzner 10y ago
  Sure, but the biggest problem with modern IDE's is the fact that they are terrible at editing text. IDE's and text editors overlap in their uses, but they are not the same. Sometimes you really do just have a text editing task, and none of the IDE functionality will help with it. Also, the ways in which IDE's are extensible is lacking compared to something like Emacs. Yes, they come with a bunch of built-in useful stuff, but sometimes you want to add a keybinding to do some editing task you do a lot in a particular project or company, even if it's not useful in a more general-purpose setting.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Yes, they come with a bunch of built-in useful stuff, but sometimes you want to add a keybinding to do some editing task you do a lot in a particular project or company, even if it's not useful in a more general-purpose setting. Don't know what IDE you used but Netbeans is very customisable and extensible. I think this is true for IntelliJ and eclipse as well and it would surprise me if it wasn't for Visual Studio. (In fact I think I have seen vim modes for all of these and even embedded vim in eclipse.)

reitanqild 10y ago

To be clear, do you think a "good IDE" is inherently better than Vim/Kako for most people? Right now, for most people: very much yes. Personally i don't see a difference in a GUI based editor and a text based editor. In fact, i quite prefer text based, because it forces an editor to treat the keyboard as a first class citizen - GUI IDEs can get lazy and revert to mouse whenever they please. Fair point. However: Between the default keybindings of Netbeans on Windows or Linux and the simplicity of customising it to my hearts content I haven't found any reason to abandon it. I can see the argument that Vim might not be inherently as good as a "good" GUI editor, but i don't think that is a negative towards the potential of text based editors. It just means that we need new editors to focus on the UX, imo. Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years.

notheguyouthink 10y ago
> Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years. Yea, i definitely agree there. It's also that GUI IDEs tend to cater towards.. well, a different crowd. What that means in real world terms in often a product with rough edges, confusing patterns, and a horribly steep learning curve. I enjoy seeing products and languages (programming) focus on learning as core feature of the product. It really is inherently important to a projects success.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  Meanwhile, Git has taken over all source control for development despite being possibly one of the worst applications ever created. (Hell, even Lotus Notes tried to be usable-- it failed, but it tried.) It's a lost cause in this industry.
wtetzner 10y ago
> Here is where I'll argue that the main advantage of the big IDEs are that they have focused on UX for years. You say that, but somehow I still find the UX of every IDE I've tried to be lacking. I much prefer the UX of Emacs.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  You spent (likely) years learning Emacs. How much time did you spend learning each of those IDEs you've tried? You have to realize that psychologically: you like things you're familiar with, and dislike things you're unfamiliar with. That's how top-40 radio works. That's why everybody bitches over every new software update, even when the new version is provably better. So of course you like the thing you spent years with over the thing you tried to learn for a week and a half then gave up on because Emacs is better. That has nothing to do with UX.
  - wtetzner 10y ago
    I've spent years in Eclipse as well (and still use it every day at work for Java stuff), and I appreciate a lot of the functionality it offers, but I definitely find the UX lacking. It's klunky. Yes, it's maybe more discoverable (although, at least in the case of Ecipse, that's debatable) and some of the keybindings are probably more familiar to most people, but I find that even though Emacs has a bit of a learning curve, once you've gotten past that, the experience of actually using it is very fluid and productive.

marktangotango 10y ago

The core "IDE" features you don't normally get with an editor are things like project views, intellisense, code completion as you type, real time parsing and error highlight, code navigation. Sure you can get most all of this by wrangling plugins for vim (or which ever editor you choose) but in an IDE like eclipse, netbeans, intellij, visual studio, it's all there, ready to go. In effect, a modern IDE is "programming ability" multiplier. It helps me code smarter and faster. That plus understanding what's going on behind the scenes is a powerful combination.

notheguyouthink 10y ago
Note, it sounds like Kakoune is trying to be a text and code editor first. Not just a text editor, like Vim is out of the box. Completion and code related tools appear to be first class citizens. With that said, it's purely speculative on my part, i clearly don't know - Kakoune is new to me.
wtetzner 10y ago
Sure, but the biggest problem with modern IDE's is the fact that they are terrible at editing text. IDE's and text editors overlap in their uses, but they are not the same. Sometimes you really do just have a text editing task, and none of the IDE functionality will help with it. Also, the ways in which IDE's are extensible is lacking compared to something like Emacs. Yes, they come with a bunch of built-in useful stuff, but sometimes you want to add a keybinding to do some editing task you do a lot in a particular project or company, even if it's not useful in a more general-purpose setting.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Yes, they come with a bunch of built-in useful stuff, but sometimes you want to add a keybinding to do some editing task you do a lot in a particular project or company, even if it's not useful in a more general-purpose setting. Don't know what IDE you used but Netbeans is very customisable and extensible. I think this is true for IntelliJ and eclipse as well and it would surprise me if it wasn't for Visual Studio. (In fact I think I have seen vim modes for all of these and even embedded vim in eclipse.)