8 ms·

If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims... (you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion) > A design go

If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims... (you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion) > A design goal of Kakoune is to beat vim at its own game, while providing a cleaner editing model. > Kakoune manages to beat Vim at the keystroke count game in most cases, using much more idiomatic commands. > Kakoune provides an efficient code editing environment, both very predictible, hence scriptable, and very interactive. Its learning curve is considerably easier than Vim thanks to a more consistent design associated with strong discoverability, while still being faster (as in less keystrokes) in most use cases.

laurent123456 10y ago
This is also quite an important difference: > Kakoune’s grammar is object followed by verb, combined with instantaneous feedback, that means you always see the current object (In Kakoune we call that the selection) before you apply your change, which allows you to correct errors on the go.
- OskarS 10y ago
  I'm thinking about whether this is a good idea. He gets vi/Vim's model slightly wrong by saying it's "verb then object". While that is true for some things (i.e. text objects, like "ciw" for "change inner word"), it's not true in general. The general rule is "verb then motion". In "dw" ("delete word"), the "w" doesn't represent an object, it represents a motion (going one word forward). It's the same motion that I can use for any command, mapping, or indeed for just moving through text. Let say I want to delete a word from somewhere in the middle of a line. I would then navigate to the line in question, then press something like "^wwwdw" (i.e. "move to the beginning of the line, move 3 words forwards, delete word"). The motion of the deletion is the same as the motion for navigation. How would that work if the motion comes first? Would I go "wwwwd"? Would that delete one word, or four? Would you use a different key for the motion and the text object? I don't think this is a bad idea, swapping the order. The thing about showing you what's about to happen is a great point (though Visual mode in vim works pretty well for this purpose). I'm just wondering if it's better in practice. I'm certainly willing to give it a shot.
  - omtose 10y ago
    >How would that work if the motion comes first? Would I go "wwwwd"? Would that delete one word, or four? 'w' will move the current selection to the next word so only one word. To extend the selection you need to press 'W' so "wWWWd" will delete four words. For most motions (if not all), the uppercase variant will extend the current selection. This also makes searching slightly different: / search forwards ? extend selection forward <a-/> search backwards <a-?> extend selection backwards
    - OskarS 10y ago
      Can you add counts to motions/objects? I.e. does "3w" select three words you can act on, or do you have to go "wWW"?
      - huac 10y ago
        3w works
        Phlogistique 10y ago
        as well as 3W, for a different purpose
    - sullyj3 10y ago
      w irritates me, because it always traverses a bunch of miscellaneous symbols, and my brain can't parse fast enough to easily tell in advance how many times I'll have to press w in order to get where I want. Extremely minor, but extremely niggly annoyance. I've found myself using https://github.com/justinmk/vim-sneak https://github.com/justinmk/vim-sneak more and more often.
      - flukus 10y ago
        You might also like quick-scope: https://github.com/unblevable/quick-scope https://github.com/unblevable/quick-scope
  - 10y ago
- sevensor 10y ago
  I often use visual selection mode in vim so that I can see what I'm about to operate on. For instance, if I want to change text between the cursor and the next match of a regex, I want to see the selection before I change it. So instead of c/re[enter], I type v/re[enter]c. It's one extra character, but it saves me a lot of headaches. This is the first I've heard of Kakoune, but I'm definitely intrigued.
  - sevensor 10y ago
    Probably too late for anybody to see this comment, but I'd just like to drop back in and say I've tried it and it's amazing. I really did not expect that another text editor would be able to improve on Vim on basically all fronts, but kak has done it.
masukomi 10y ago
The last one is compelling, but the new "editing language" and paradigm that's been put together is _really_ compelling. Being able to see what a "sentence" is going to do as you're typing it is a huge improvement on vim. I _love_ vim, but executing complex commands is like shouting into a dark tunnel and hoping the person on the other end understands what you were trying to say.
- nerdponx 10y ago
  You know there's a setting to display the current command in the status line right?
  - kaoD 10y ago
    Unless I misunderstood that won't show the result of the command.
  - proaralyst 10y ago
    There's a difference in knowing what you've typed and what that means. Displaying the current chord protects against typos and losing track, but doesn't help you understand what your command is doing. I'm not convinced I'll switch to Kakoune (as I've got a lot of momentum in Vim, not just with the editing language) but the automatic display of the _semantics_ of your current chord is an interesting idea.
- DennisP 10y ago
  That's why I tend to use visual mode. It sounds like Kakoune is basically visual mode by default, which is cool but not that different. This example was a bit silly: "dtf will delete to next f, if you then realize that was one f before the one you targeted, you need to undo, go back to your initial position, and try again with d2tf." There's no need to undo. Just follow up with a dot and you're done. Which pretty much illustrates my other general strategy, which is to edit incrementally without worrying about getting each command perfect. (Which is not to say I don't find Kakoune intriguing.)
  - jxy 10y ago
wangchow 10y ago
In this age we need to think about things like voice control and 3D manipulation of data-structures and a dynamic view of the code. We can truthfully keep designing 2D editors (and we will always most likely use them to some extent) but I believe it is more important to consider different UI paradigms altogether. For instance, what about editing a living code environment? Game development is very immersive: you can manipulate a running environment and see results immediately. How can this be extended to other development tasks like server-side development? What if, when you select a for loop from code fragment a 3D visualization of the programs data structures at that point is shown to the user. What if you can, instead of launching a debugger, run the debugger as you're writing the code and step forward and back and see these visualizations change? We have all the technology. It's time to get to the next level.
- rimantas 10y ago
  > We have all the technology. > It's time to get to the next level. Just because you can does not mean you should. Dictating code may be useful is you cannot use your hands, but that's about it. In all other cases there is no benefits of doing that.
  - wangchow 10y ago
    Well consider if you use both dictation and typing simultaneously. Vi and kakoune are ergonomic because it requires minimum changes to hand positions. But if you added voice dictation like "toggle tab 2" or "toggle terminal" or "go next brace" etc, all while STILL typing my guess is efficiency would go up physical fatigue would go down.
    - mncharity 10y ago
      Folks have created Dragon-based voiced-sound vocabulary for editor control. Voice strain is an issue, but you can load share with typing. You can do Google voice recognition in browser/WebVR, but it's better at sentences than brief commands. Another component, largely unexplored, is hand controller motion. The Vive's are highly sensitive in position and angle. Millimeterish. So imagine swype text (phone keyboard continuous sliding) with 6 DOF. Plus the touchpad (the buttons aren't something you'd want to use all the time). Keyboard+pad is mature tech. But wands-with-pads look potentially competitive, and (not yet available) hand-mounted finger tracking added to keyboard+pad might make for a smooth transition. Plus voice. The space of steep-learning-curve input UIs for professionals looks intriguing.

laurent123456 10y ago

This is also quite an important difference: > Kakoune’s grammar is object followed by verb, combined with instantaneous feedback, that means you always see the current object (In Kakoune we call that the selection) before you apply your change, which allows you to correct errors on the go.

OskarS 10y ago
I'm thinking about whether this is a good idea. He gets vi/Vim's model slightly wrong by saying it's "verb then object". While that is true for some things (i.e. text objects, like "ciw" for "change inner word"), it's not true in general. The general rule is "verb then motion". In "dw" ("delete word"), the "w" doesn't represent an object, it represents a motion (going one word forward). It's the same motion that I can use for any command, mapping, or indeed for just moving through text. Let say I want to delete a word from somewhere in the middle of a line. I would then navigate to the line in question, then press something like "^wwwdw" (i.e. "move to the beginning of the line, move 3 words forwards, delete word"). The motion of the deletion is the same as the motion for navigation. How would that work if the motion comes first? Would I go "wwwwd"? Would that delete one word, or four? Would you use a different key for the motion and the text object? I don't think this is a bad idea, swapping the order. The thing about showing you what's about to happen is a great point (though Visual mode in vim works pretty well for this purpose). I'm just wondering if it's better in practice. I'm certainly willing to give it a shot.
- omtose 10y ago
  >How would that work if the motion comes first? Would I go "wwwwd"? Would that delete one word, or four? 'w' will move the current selection to the next word so only one word. To extend the selection you need to press 'W' so "wWWWd" will delete four words. For most motions (if not all), the uppercase variant will extend the current selection. This also makes searching slightly different: / search forwards ? extend selection forward <a-/> search backwards <a-?> extend selection backwards
  - OskarS 10y ago
    Can you add counts to motions/objects? I.e. does "3w" select three words you can act on, or do you have to go "wWW"?
    - huac 10y ago
      3w works
      - Phlogistique 10y ago
        as well as 3W, for a different purpose
  - sullyj3 10y ago
    w irritates me, because it always traverses a bunch of miscellaneous symbols, and my brain can't parse fast enough to easily tell in advance how many times I'll have to press w in order to get where I want. Extremely minor, but extremely niggly annoyance. I've found myself using https://github.com/justinmk/vim-sneak https://github.com/justinmk/vim-sneak more and more often.
    - flukus 10y ago
      You might also like quick-scope: https://github.com/unblevable/quick-scope https://github.com/unblevable/quick-scope
- 10y ago
sevensor 10y ago
I often use visual selection mode in vim so that I can see what I'm about to operate on. For instance, if I want to change text between the cursor and the next match of a regex, I want to see the selection before I change it. So instead of c/re[enter], I type v/re[enter]c. It's one extra character, but it saves me a lot of headaches. This is the first I've heard of Kakoune, but I'm definitely intrigued.
- sevensor 10y ago
  Probably too late for anybody to see this comment, but I'd just like to drop back in and say I've tried it and it's amazing. I really did not expect that another text editor would be able to improve on Vim on basically all fronts, but kak has done it.

masukomi 10y ago

The last one is compelling, but the new "editing language" and paradigm that's been put together is _really_ compelling. Being able to see what a "sentence" is going to do as you're typing it is a huge improvement on vim. I _love_ vim, but executing complex commands is like shouting into a dark tunnel and hoping the person on the other end understands what you were trying to say.

nerdponx 10y ago
You know there's a setting to display the current command in the status line right?
- kaoD 10y ago
  Unless I misunderstood that won't show the result of the command.
- proaralyst 10y ago
  There's a difference in knowing what you've typed and what that means. Displaying the current chord protects against typos and losing track, but doesn't help you understand what your command is doing. I'm not convinced I'll switch to Kakoune (as I've got a lot of momentum in Vim, not just with the editing language) but the automatic display of the _semantics_ of your current chord is an interesting idea.
DennisP 10y ago
That's why I tend to use visual mode. It sounds like Kakoune is basically visual mode by default, which is cool but not that different. This example was a bit silly: "dtf will delete to next f, if you then realize that was one f before the one you targeted, you need to undo, go back to your initial position, and try again with d2tf." There's no need to undo. Just follow up with a dot and you're done. Which pretty much illustrates my other general strategy, which is to edit incrementally without worrying about getting each command perfect. (Which is not to say I don't find Kakoune intriguing.)
- jxy 10y ago

wangchow 10y ago

In this age we need to think about things like voice control and 3D manipulation of data-structures and a dynamic view of the code. We can truthfully keep designing 2D editors (and we will always most likely use them to some extent) but I believe it is more important to consider different UI paradigms altogether. For instance, what about editing a living code environment? Game development is very immersive: you can manipulate a running environment and see results immediately. How can this be extended to other development tasks like server-side development? What if, when you select a for loop from code fragment a 3D visualization of the programs data structures at that point is shown to the user. What if you can, instead of launching a debugger, run the debugger as you're writing the code and step forward and back and see these visualizations change? We have all the technology. It's time to get to the next level.

rimantas 10y ago
> We have all the technology. > It's time to get to the next level. Just because you can does not mean you should. Dictating code may be useful is you cannot use your hands, but that's about it. In all other cases there is no benefits of doing that.
- wangchow 10y ago
  Well consider if you use both dictation and typing simultaneously. Vi and kakoune are ergonomic because it requires minimum changes to hand positions. But if you added voice dictation like "toggle tab 2" or "toggle terminal" or "go next brace" etc, all while STILL typing my guess is efficiency would go up physical fatigue would go down.
  - mncharity 10y ago
    Folks have created Dragon-based voiced-sound vocabulary for editor control. Voice strain is an issue, but you can load share with typing. You can do Google voice recognition in browser/WebVR, but it's better at sentences than brief commands. Another component, largely unexplored, is hand controller motion. The Vive's are highly sensitive in position and angle. Millimeterish. So imagine swype text (phone keyboard continuous sliding) with 6 DOF. Plus the touchpad (the buttons aren't something you'd want to use all the time). Keyboard+pad is mature tech. But wands-with-pads look potentially competitive, and (not yet available) hand-mounted finger tracking added to keyboard+pad might make for a smooth transition. Plus voice. The space of steep-learning-curve input UIs for professionals looks intriguing.