8 ms·

California man spent $1M playing Game of War

92 points by anc84 10y ago

nl 10y ago
I've seen comments here on HN before from game developers who claimed that had player who they characterized (unclear how correctly) as "Saudi Oil rich-kids" who'd spend tens of thousands on in-game costumes to out-peacock their friends. This is a whole other level though.
- gadders 10y ago
  "As I understand it, "whales" tend to be less "poor gullible fools maxing out their credit cards" and more "extraordinarily wealthy people that enjoy wasting amounts that seem ridiculous to us but are truly nothing but a drop in the bucket to them." The term "oil prince" is trotted out sometimes, and people like that really do exist: I don't remember his name, but there is a very real "oil prince" who likes to go on twitch.tv and shower random (mostly female) streamers with thousands of dollars." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862
  - pyrale 10y ago
    It would be interesting to know to which extent it is true, because this sounds exactly like the ideal line of defense for a casino-like industry.
    - gadders 10y ago
      Yeah. I know there are lots of problems in the UK with fixed odd betting machines (http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-betting-terminals/ http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-betti...)
bitwize 10y ago
Well, I guess we now know who TheLegend27 is.
partycoder 10y ago
Most of the core revenue making mechanics are imported from Japanese games, that had a game boom earlier than the west due to abundance of feature phones that were very close to modern smartphones... as well as people bored in trains. One of the core elements is the concept of "gacha" or probabilistic purchase, where instead of selling an item for a price, they sell a low probability of getting what you actually want for a lower price... but in the end people try over and over again and easily lose track of their purchases and end up spending more. Some forms of gacha are no longer legal (e.g: kompu gacha), due to their exceptional ability to make people spend... last time I checked the thing was "box gacha". Another way of making revenue is through "events", which are competitions, but their outcome is heavily influenced by how much you spend. They're basically auctions. The thing is... in the end people don't really win. To win an event in a top grossing game you might need probably a thousand dollars. It's not worth it.
- ionwake 10y ago
  This is interesting, do you have any sources or links so I can find out more?
  - ddorian43 10y ago
    I think steam does the same thing (the probability to get), something with crates and locks.
    - rgun 10y ago
      It does. See Dota 2, CS: GO or Team Fortress 2.
  - Lazare 10y ago
    Not sure how much detail you want. As a quick summary: * "Gacha" is basically a mystery prize. Pay 1 token, get 1 random thing from a pool of options. Generally no published odds. * "Kompu Gacha" is a system where you have to collect a set of specific prizes from the pool, which you can then turn in to obtain a very desirable item. Again, odds not published. And as you might expect, 1-2 of the items will be extremely rare, meaning that most people end up with an almost complete set, and a strong compulsion to open just one more prize to see if it'll complete it, but with no guarantee you'll ever complete it. * "Box gacha" has a fixed, depleting pool of prizes with a known distribution; they come out in a nominally random order, but you can buy every prize in the pool and guarantee that you'll get the reward. Once you start to look around, you'll see the mechanic and variations on it everywhere. McDonald's runs a popular Monopoly game that's a pretty classic kompu gacha. Tons of modern computer/console games have some form of loot crate which works like that. One I've been seeing a lot is multiple currency tiers, where an easy/free currency can purchase draws from a low value prize pool, and a harder/cash currency can purchase draws from a high value prize pool. Another trick is to have an armour set that works really well together, where most pieces can be obtained (with effort) for free, but one piece can basically only be obtained as a rare prize that costs cash per draw. You grind out getting most of the armour, then realise it's mostly useless without the helm of power (or whatever), and so you buy just one prize draw to see if you get lucky and complete the set so all your work wasn't for nothing. And then one more draw. Good way of drawing in "gamers" who might resist a cruder form. Even Overwatch has it: During their periodic holidays, there's a new loot crate which you can earn via playing games (very slowly) or purchase for cash. The new loot crates have a chance of containing new cosmetic items (costumes, emotes) that are only available during the holiday. And that's the only way to get the items, and the holiday only comes up once a year. So if you really, really want the new Mercy costume, you'll end up buying packs of crates and opening them in the hope that this batch will have the costume. Or this one. Or the next one. Anecdotally, most people end up paying way more for the items they want than they would have if they were just listed in a store for dollars. (There's zero play to win in Overwatch; it's just cosmetic. But it's still a bit sleezy.) As for links, maybe: http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-box-gacha/ http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-box... http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japan/ http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon
baybal2 10y ago
>Machine Zone Good day in Smolensk. Try playing in Russian unwinable casino
majortennis 10y ago
slightly NSFW
lambdadmitry 10y ago
This is sad. Can't help but think about a speech in the recent Westworld finale: > Since I was a child, I've always loved a good story. > I believed that stories helped us to ennoble ourselves, > to fix what was broken in us and to help us become the > people we dreamed of being. Lies that told a deeper truth. > I always thought I could play some small part in that > grand tradition. It's funny how people from the same background, class and culture are capable of both creating a beautiful, if slightly pessimistic, story and a ruthless exploitation machine. In both cases they do it for money, both are profitable, and yet the effect is very different.
Ftuuky 10y ago
My girlfriend works as data analyst for a mobile gaming company and she found a user that spends between 4000 to 6000 USD every month on items. Who are these people?
- deleted 10y ago
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- Paul_S 10y ago
  They are victims. Ask your girlfriend where, if at all, she draws the moral line. I'm not a saint but I wouldn't be able to justify that to myself.
  - IanDrake 10y ago
    Hmm, I would draw the line at adults spending their own money however they legally pleased. It's not moral to dictate how another's earnings should be spent. That's the opposite of moral.
    - anc84 10y ago
      Exploiting psychological flaws in humans might be legal but is horrifyingly immoral and unethical.
    - ap22213 10y ago
      With some exceptions, right? Friends and family? Neighbors? I would certainly intervene if my loved ones became addicts. I'd also interven if it indirectly affected me (e.g. higher crime, more homelessness, loss of property value, etc).
    - zelos 10y ago
      Gambling is a pretty highly regulated industry in most jurisdictions because it exploits psychological flaws in humans. We're not perfectly logical decision making machines.
  - selckin 10y ago
    There are quite a few people making ungodly amounts of money. Many of these games market specifically to get those whales. That 5K/month could be 0.01% of their income
braymundo 10y ago
To some degree, every game has addictive mechanics. This type of mobile game clearly crosses an ethical line... but where's the line?
- dagurp 10y ago
  I think they cross the line by not limiting how much people can spend in the game.
  - braymundo 10y ago
    But is there a limit on how much people can spend on games that are not considered as belonging to the same category as Game of War, such as Hearthstone or Magic: The Gathering? Granted, the addictive mechanics are not as overt, but potentially you could spend a lot there as well.
    - eswat 10y ago
      It’s a question of intent by the business as well. Blizzard and Wizards of the Sword coast, despite getting into similar mechanics as F2P games, are still companies that largely extract value from customers as a byproduct of providing them with fun experiences. Companies like that in the article are different, usually extracting value by producing thinly-veiled gambling experiences that prey on the fallacies in our internal reward systems. Both kinds of companies have access to the same tools and tricks to manipulate our reward systems. But how we play depends on the intention.
    - lgieron 10y ago
      In Magic at least it's not pay to win - the better you are, the less you need to spend.
      - pyrale 10y ago
        afaik pro players either borrow their cards from stores, or are running stores in order to have access to the cards. Almost none of them would be able to play the game at their level while also paying for their working tools. But, somehow, they are shown as examples to players without these connections... If I can give an advice to anyone willing to play somewhat competitive magic without mortgaging their house, play block pauper magic.
bottled_poe 10y ago
This is not a game for kids, it is for gambling addicts. And now those addicts no longer need to physically go to the casino to feed that addiction. These companies are predators.
- phatfish 10y ago
  Slightly off topic, but it was only recently that I found out that the video game roulette and black-jack etc. machines (known as fixed odds betting terminals) are the reason there are so many bloody betting shops in the UK. The government restricted these machines to only 4 per shop. Apparently they print enough money that a betting shop will have 2 or 3 branches within walking distance to get around the limit. This is along with all the other chains doing exactly the same thing. It's madness.
KellyOn 10y ago
Agree with the opinion that it's gambling addiction. I also like to play slot games such as Gold Rush at http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html after hard day at work. But I've never played on money. I play such games just to relax
emdowling 10y ago
I'm a huge proponent of platform owners getting out of the way when it comes to restrictions (at odds with my use of iOS, but it's a balance of priorities). When will regulations catch up with this sort of thing? Do Apple/Google have a moral responsibility here? Apple expressly forbids gambling apps, but this is essentially a slot machine with a different mechanic. Apple (not as familiar with Google) have done a great job on iOS giving parents the options to restrict their children making unauthorised purchases, but the settings aren't hugely discoverable. In this day and age, do we need to consider a digital restraining order that allows a spouse or close family member to block or limit digital addicts? Do Apple or Google have a duty of care here or does it rest with law makers? The concerning part is that these purchases are invisible. If I buy a $1 million boat, others will see that and can intervene. But digital purchases can rack up silently and cause massive damage without anyone realising. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue. One side of me says that "it's his money, he can do what he wants" whereas the other side says that society should protect it's weakest, and this man clearly has a gambling problem.
- LukeB_UK 10y ago
  I work for a gambling company in the UK and at least here Apple allow our apps on their store. Google block them though.
- PaulRobinson 10y ago
  Actually, gambling apps are allowed in stores for territories where gambling is legal. In the UK every bookmaker will have an app, and there are plenty of real-money casino and bingo apps available. Of course, the difference here, is that the UK's gambling companies operate in a highly regulated environment. You can put in place deposit limits instantly that then take a week or more to lift, you can self-exclude (ban yourself from the bookmaker), and these are the measures the firms have put in themselves, the regulator is there to basically make sure they're following consistent rules and treating players fairly. Money laundering regulations, appropriate licensing, etc. also all add up. The general view is that people should be free to gamble, but also have a regulatory framework to remove criminal elements and ensure players are treated fairly. It helps that the government gets to tax proceeds as well - an issue causing real headaches as they've become as addicted to the in-store FOBTs income as much as bookmaker shareholders have. I've thought for a while that there was going to come a time when spending caps were likely going to be needed for in-game assets. But then, where do you draw the line? You could easily argue that webcam sites are potentially as addictive, exploitative and potentially have the same game behaviour that is so dangerous here.
irishbro 10y ago
China is set to introduce a law that will force these sort of games to reveal their drop rates. It will be interesting to see if it will have any effect but my gut is telling their wont be any significant changes. Thinking about it I wonder how they expect games to report this information when it is most likely have 2 or 3 different data sets in the wild with different drop rates. A company could mis-lead customers by displaying the percentages for one data set with favourable odds when in reality they are in a bucket with much worse odds. Source : http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-forces-devs-to-reveal-loot-box-drop-rates-in-game http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-force...
- partycoder 10y ago
  This would be great. Sometimes the game UX presents probabilities in a misleading way... such showing the card being taken from a deck. However if it was probabilistically accurate, the deck shown in the UX would have probably 10000 cards in it.
ikeboy 10y ago
They spent $40 million in advertising, gotta earn it back somehow.
JohnGrin 10y ago
Agree with the opinion that it's gambling addiction. I also like to play slot games such as Gold Rush at http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html after hard day at work. But I've never played on money. I play such games just to relax
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eauxuae 10y ago
Following this news among others, I tried to start an Ask HN thread on recommended readings regarding freemium mobile games' strategies, but it didn't draw any attention so far. Here is the link if you would like to contribute: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836
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johnbrendt 10y ago
http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-for-teaching-excellence/teaching-and-learning/tips-for-student-online-success http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-for-t...
koolba 10y ago
# Free startup idea: HN style site that combines karma based gamification with in-app purchases! Imagine if you could "buy" your way to the top post, thus ensuring you get more eyeballs, and hopefully more upvotes! Worried about downvotes against your pointless comment? Buy a "Downvote Shield (TM)" (Note: the shield only lasts for 45 minutes so you'll have to buy another one if the post stays popular!). What about going on offense you say? Well downvotes are a limited resource (one free per day, max reserve of 3, takes 24-hours to recharge your downvote) but no worries, but you can buy a 10-pack of fresh downvotes for only 20 karma crystals[1]! [1]: Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency.
- hguant 10y ago
  > [1]: Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency. This made me actively cringe.
- arbuge 10y ago
  >> HN style site that combines karma based gamification with in-app purchases! Imagine if you could "buy" your way to the top post, thus ensuring you get more eyeballs, and hopefully more upvotes! Worried about downvotes against your pointless comment? Buy a "Downvote Shield (TM)" This actually describes Reddit and it's advertising system pretty closely.
- whazor 10y ago
  Talking about karma and money. steemit.com allows to receive money from upvotes. The more money you have, the more your upvoting matters.
- CM30 10y ago
  Oh, give it a few years or so and I bet we'll see a site just like that one. There's definitely some sort of audience that would want a Reddit where cold hard cash is the main ranking factor and those who spend can flaunt the 'rules' of the system. Ycombinator 2020 anyone?
johanneskanybal 10y ago
It's just downright crazy gambling is regulated yet ingame purchases with infinitely well crafted adiction mechanisms data driven and personalized is not.
kefka 10y ago
One problems I've found with these style of apps are the elderly community. My wife works at "In-Home healthcare" for the elderly community, specializing in hospice care. Because of this, she sees a lot of family members who get their parents tablets. It can be an iPad, or Android tablet. And it's used to facilitate cheap/free communication. (Don't worry, anything with app stores + in app payments are at fault, not $your_ecosystem.) The dark side, is when they start venturing around looking for "games". Now, think of what a game was 20 and 30 years ago. We're talking arcade, Nintendo, Atari.. That sort of thing. The psychological skinner-box wasn't really created as of yet (it was, but only in arcades, and even the bad ones people stayed away from). And then you have the "Freemium Apps". AKA money-bilking skinner boxes. Now, what makes these insidious, is the fact they ask for your credit card once, and keep it on file. Now, buying "virtual trash" is as easy as click click done. And conveniently drains your card. And it's done so well that you think you're doing with fake play money - when it's really your real account. My wife's already had a few clients got bit by this. It was a few thousand dollars, but enough to cause serious problems with someone who is on a fixed budget. Fortunately, the bank reversed much of it as fraudulent billing. Some of it was outside of dispute period, and was lost.
- robocaptain 10y ago
  I have an elderly family member with this exact problem. Even with constant reminding, it is an uphill battle. I suspect it is a combination of addiction but also "dark patterns" that essentially trick folks into spending money. One thing that helped is switching the family member to a True Link card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link While not perfect, it does root out the obvious scammers and does make it much easier to push back and cancel those reccuring subscriptions that "some how" keep getting activated. I have no affiliation with True Link, but posting it in hopes it can help someone with a similar problem. Edit: Just now realized True Link has a YC affiliation, so maybe this is more on topic than I thought.
  - koolba 10y ago
    Why not just remove the payment card from their account? You don't need to have a card on file to install free apps and if you have no intention of buying anything, there's no reason to have one on file at all.
DanBC 10y ago
I'd be interested to see some journalism around IAPs in apps aimed at Children. Talking Tom's Gold Run is a fun little endless runner. It's well made. My kid enjoys it. There's an IAP to turn off most ads, and because we play the app a lot I bought that, and some other bits and bobs. But I was looking at the IAPs and I have no idea how much I'd have to spend if I wanted to unlock everything - all the courses, all the characters, everything. The most expensive IAP is £79, and that wouldn't come close to unlocking everything. I don't think you have to buy anything, I think you could just grind the game to complete it with play not pay.
wturner 10y ago
When I worked at Expression College I use to talk and interact quite a bit with Gabe the founder.Suffice to say if you heard the way he spoke in private about "these people" (the game audience world) it would make you cringe even more. This was before he "made it", but was still in the game industry. Regardless, he's very smart in the most Machiavellian sense of the word. Some of his online talks are actually really enlightening. I'm grateful I'm not in that world. It reminds me of Donald Trump. Relentless hypocrisy, no shame, and the entire thing coupled with the grand illusion of success. And stop calling these "games" they're not! They're real-money auctions to have your name at the top of some silly todo list. lol
johny33 10y ago
Agree with the opinion that it's gambling addiction. I also quite often play poker at casinoz.club. After hard day at work such games help me to relax. But I've never played on money. I know a lot of people who spends hundreds dollars each week on gambling.

92 points by anc84 10y ago

nl 10y ago

I've seen comments here on HN before from game developers who claimed that had player who they characterized (unclear how correctly) as "Saudi Oil rich-kids" who'd spend tens of thousands on in-game costumes to out-peacock their friends. This is a whole other level though.

gadders 10y ago
"As I understand it, "whales" tend to be less "poor gullible fools maxing out their credit cards" and more "extraordinarily wealthy people that enjoy wasting amounts that seem ridiculous to us but are truly nothing but a drop in the bucket to them." The term "oil prince" is trotted out sometimes, and people like that really do exist: I don't remember his name, but there is a very real "oil prince" who likes to go on twitch.tv and shower random (mostly female) streamers with thousands of dollars." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7164862
- pyrale 10y ago
  It would be interesting to know to which extent it is true, because this sounds exactly like the ideal line of defense for a casino-like industry.
  - gadders 10y ago
    Yeah. I know there are lots of problems in the UK with fixed odd betting machines (http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-betting-terminals/ http://www.itv.com/news/2016-12-13/what-are-fixed-odds-betti...)

bitwize 10y ago

Well, I guess we now know who TheLegend27 is.

partycoder 10y ago

Most of the core revenue making mechanics are imported from Japanese games, that had a game boom earlier than the west due to abundance of feature phones that were very close to modern smartphones... as well as people bored in trains. One of the core elements is the concept of "gacha" or probabilistic purchase, where instead of selling an item for a price, they sell a low probability of getting what you actually want for a lower price... but in the end people try over and over again and easily lose track of their purchases and end up spending more. Some forms of gacha are no longer legal (e.g: kompu gacha), due to their exceptional ability to make people spend... last time I checked the thing was "box gacha". Another way of making revenue is through "events", which are competitions, but their outcome is heavily influenced by how much you spend. They're basically auctions. The thing is... in the end people don't really win. To win an event in a top grossing game you might need probably a thousand dollars. It's not worth it.

ionwake 10y ago
This is interesting, do you have any sources or links so I can find out more?
- ddorian43 10y ago
  I think steam does the same thing (the probability to get), something with crates and locks.
  - rgun 10y ago
    It does. See Dota 2, CS: GO or Team Fortress 2.
- Lazare 10y ago
  Not sure how much detail you want. As a quick summary: * "Gacha" is basically a mystery prize. Pay 1 token, get 1 random thing from a pool of options. Generally no published odds. * "Kompu Gacha" is a system where you have to collect a set of specific prizes from the pool, which you can then turn in to obtain a very desirable item. Again, odds not published. And as you might expect, 1-2 of the items will be extremely rare, meaning that most people end up with an almost complete set, and a strong compulsion to open just one more prize to see if it'll complete it, but with no guarantee you'll ever complete it. * "Box gacha" has a fixed, depleting pool of prizes with a known distribution; they come out in a nominally random order, but you can buy every prize in the pool and guarantee that you'll get the reward. Once you start to look around, you'll see the mechanic and variations on it everywhere. McDonald's runs a popular Monopoly game that's a pretty classic kompu gacha. Tons of modern computer/console games have some form of loot crate which works like that. One I've been seeing a lot is multiple currency tiers, where an easy/free currency can purchase draws from a low value prize pool, and a harder/cash currency can purchase draws from a high value prize pool. Another trick is to have an armour set that works really well together, where most pieces can be obtained (with effort) for free, but one piece can basically only be obtained as a rare prize that costs cash per draw. You grind out getting most of the armour, then realise it's mostly useless without the helm of power (or whatever), and so you buy just one prize draw to see if you get lucky and complete the set so all your work wasn't for nothing. And then one more draw. Good way of drawing in "gamers" who might resist a cruder form. Even Overwatch has it: During their periodic holidays, there's a new loot crate which you can earn via playing games (very slowly) or purchase for cash. The new loot crates have a chance of containing new cosmetic items (costumes, emotes) that are only available during the holiday. And that's the only way to get the items, and the holiday only comes up once a year. So if you really, really want the new Mercy costume, you'll end up buying packs of crates and opening them in the hope that this batch will have the costume. Or this one. Or the next one. Anecdotally, most people end up paying way more for the items they want than they would have if they were just listed in a store for dollars. (There's zero play to win in Overwatch; it's just cosmetic. But it's still a bit sleezy.) As for links, maybe: http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-box-gacha/ http://www.serkantoto.com/2012/11/01/kompu-gacha-package-box... http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japan/ http://www.serkantoto.com/2016/03/14/gacha-monetization-japa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon

baybal2 10y ago

>Machine Zone Good day in Smolensk. Try playing in Russian unwinable casino

majortennis 10y ago

slightly NSFW

lambdadmitry 10y ago

This is sad. Can't help but think about a speech in the recent Westworld finale: > Since I was a child, I've always loved a good story. > I believed that stories helped us to ennoble ourselves, > to fix what was broken in us and to help us become the > people we dreamed of being. Lies that told a deeper truth. > I always thought I could play some small part in that > grand tradition. It's funny how people from the same background, class and culture are capable of both creating a beautiful, if slightly pessimistic, story and a ruthless exploitation machine. In both cases they do it for money, both are profitable, and yet the effect is very different.

Ftuuky 10y ago

My girlfriend works as data analyst for a mobile gaming company and she found a user that spends between 4000 to 6000 USD every month on items. Who are these people?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Paul_S 10y ago
They are victims. Ask your girlfriend where, if at all, she draws the moral line. I'm not a saint but I wouldn't be able to justify that to myself.
- IanDrake 10y ago
  Hmm, I would draw the line at adults spending their own money however they legally pleased. It's not moral to dictate how another's earnings should be spent. That's the opposite of moral.
  - anc84 10y ago
    Exploiting psychological flaws in humans might be legal but is horrifyingly immoral and unethical.
  - ap22213 10y ago
    With some exceptions, right? Friends and family? Neighbors? I would certainly intervene if my loved ones became addicts. I'd also interven if it indirectly affected me (e.g. higher crime, more homelessness, loss of property value, etc).
  - zelos 10y ago
    Gambling is a pretty highly regulated industry in most jurisdictions because it exploits psychological flaws in humans. We're not perfectly logical decision making machines.
- selckin 10y ago
  There are quite a few people making ungodly amounts of money. Many of these games market specifically to get those whales. That 5K/month could be 0.01% of their income

braymundo 10y ago

To some degree, every game has addictive mechanics. This type of mobile game clearly crosses an ethical line... but where's the line?

dagurp 10y ago
I think they cross the line by not limiting how much people can spend in the game.
- braymundo 10y ago
  But is there a limit on how much people can spend on games that are not considered as belonging to the same category as Game of War, such as Hearthstone or Magic: The Gathering? Granted, the addictive mechanics are not as overt, but potentially you could spend a lot there as well.
  - eswat 10y ago
    It’s a question of intent by the business as well. Blizzard and Wizards of the Sword coast, despite getting into similar mechanics as F2P games, are still companies that largely extract value from customers as a byproduct of providing them with fun experiences. Companies like that in the article are different, usually extracting value by producing thinly-veiled gambling experiences that prey on the fallacies in our internal reward systems. Both kinds of companies have access to the same tools and tricks to manipulate our reward systems. But how we play depends on the intention.
  - lgieron 10y ago
    In Magic at least it's not pay to win - the better you are, the less you need to spend.
    - pyrale 10y ago
      afaik pro players either borrow their cards from stores, or are running stores in order to have access to the cards. Almost none of them would be able to play the game at their level while also paying for their working tools. But, somehow, they are shown as examples to players without these connections... If I can give an advice to anyone willing to play somewhat competitive magic without mortgaging their house, play block pauper magic.

bottled_poe 10y ago

This is not a game for kids, it is for gambling addicts. And now those addicts no longer need to physically go to the casino to feed that addiction. These companies are predators.

phatfish 10y ago
Slightly off topic, but it was only recently that I found out that the video game roulette and black-jack etc. machines (known as fixed odds betting terminals) are the reason there are so many bloody betting shops in the UK. The government restricted these machines to only 4 per shop. Apparently they print enough money that a betting shop will have 2 or 3 branches within walking distance to get around the limit. This is along with all the other chains doing exactly the same thing. It's madness.

KellyOn 10y ago

Agree with the opinion that it's gambling addiction. I also like to play slot games such as Gold Rush at http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html http://www.casinoz.club/game/Gold-Rush-Playson.html after hard day at work. But I've never played on money. I play such games just to relax

emdowling 10y ago

I'm a huge proponent of platform owners getting out of the way when it comes to restrictions (at odds with my use of iOS, but it's a balance of priorities). When will regulations catch up with this sort of thing? Do Apple/Google have a moral responsibility here? Apple expressly forbids gambling apps, but this is essentially a slot machine with a different mechanic. Apple (not as familiar with Google) have done a great job on iOS giving parents the options to restrict their children making unauthorised purchases, but the settings aren't hugely discoverable. In this day and age, do we need to consider a digital restraining order that allows a spouse or close family member to block or limit digital addicts? Do Apple or Google have a duty of care here or does it rest with law makers? The concerning part is that these purchases are invisible. If I buy a $1 million boat, others will see that and can intervene. But digital purchases can rack up silently and cause massive damage without anyone realising. I'm really not sure where I stand on the issue. One side of me says that "it's his money, he can do what he wants" whereas the other side says that society should protect it's weakest, and this man clearly has a gambling problem.

LukeB_UK 10y ago
I work for a gambling company in the UK and at least here Apple allow our apps on their store. Google block them though.
PaulRobinson 10y ago
Actually, gambling apps are allowed in stores for territories where gambling is legal. In the UK every bookmaker will have an app, and there are plenty of real-money casino and bingo apps available. Of course, the difference here, is that the UK's gambling companies operate in a highly regulated environment. You can put in place deposit limits instantly that then take a week or more to lift, you can self-exclude (ban yourself from the bookmaker), and these are the measures the firms have put in themselves, the regulator is there to basically make sure they're following consistent rules and treating players fairly. Money laundering regulations, appropriate licensing, etc. also all add up. The general view is that people should be free to gamble, but also have a regulatory framework to remove criminal elements and ensure players are treated fairly. It helps that the government gets to tax proceeds as well - an issue causing real headaches as they've become as addicted to the in-store FOBTs income as much as bookmaker shareholders have. I've thought for a while that there was going to come a time when spending caps were likely going to be needed for in-game assets. But then, where do you draw the line? You could easily argue that webcam sites are potentially as addictive, exploitative and potentially have the same game behaviour that is so dangerous here.

irishbro 10y ago

China is set to introduce a law that will force these sort of games to reveal their drop rates. It will be interesting to see if it will have any effect but my gut is telling their wont be any significant changes. Thinking about it I wonder how they expect games to report this information when it is most likely have 2 or 3 different data sets in the wild with different drop rates. A company could mis-lead customers by displaying the percentages for one data set with favourable odds when in reality they are in a bucket with much worse odds. Source : http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-forces-devs-to-reveal-loot-box-drop-rates-in-game http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-12-09-china-force...

partycoder 10y ago
This would be great. Sometimes the game UX presents probabilities in a misleading way... such showing the card being taken from a deck. However if it was probabilistically accurate, the deck shown in the UX would have probably 10000 cards in it.

ikeboy 10y ago

They spent $40 million in advertising, gotta earn it back somehow.

JohnGrin 10y ago

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eauxuae 10y ago

Following this news among others, I tried to start an Ask HN thread on recommended readings regarding freemium mobile games' strategies, but it didn't draw any attention so far. Here is the link if you would like to contribute: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13157836

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johnbrendt 10y ago

http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-for-teaching-excellence/teaching-and-learning/tips-for-student-online-success http://www.duq.edu/about/centers-and-institutes/center-for-t...

koolba 10y ago

# Free startup idea: HN style site that combines karma based gamification with in-app purchases! Imagine if you could "buy" your way to the top post, thus ensuring you get more eyeballs, and hopefully more upvotes! Worried about downvotes against your pointless comment? Buy a "Downvote Shield (TM)" (Note: the shield only lasts for 45 minutes so you'll have to buy another one if the post stays popular!). What about going on offense you say? Well downvotes are a limited resource (one free per day, max reserve of 3, takes 24-hours to recharge your downvote) but no worries, but you can buy a 10-pack of fresh downvotes for only 20 karma crystals[1]! [1]: Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency.

hguant 10y ago
> [1]: Karma crystals are the in game currency. You can buy them in blocks of prime numbers for whole numbers of actual currency. This made me actively cringe.
arbuge 10y ago
>> HN style site that combines karma based gamification with in-app purchases! Imagine if you could "buy" your way to the top post, thus ensuring you get more eyeballs, and hopefully more upvotes! Worried about downvotes against your pointless comment? Buy a "Downvote Shield (TM)" This actually describes Reddit and it's advertising system pretty closely.
whazor 10y ago
Talking about karma and money. steemit.com allows to receive money from upvotes. The more money you have, the more your upvoting matters.
CM30 10y ago
Oh, give it a few years or so and I bet we'll see a site just like that one. There's definitely some sort of audience that would want a Reddit where cold hard cash is the main ranking factor and those who spend can flaunt the 'rules' of the system. Ycombinator 2020 anyone?

johanneskanybal 10y ago

It's just downright crazy gambling is regulated yet ingame purchases with infinitely well crafted adiction mechanisms data driven and personalized is not.

kefka 10y ago

One problems I've found with these style of apps are the elderly community. My wife works at "In-Home healthcare" for the elderly community, specializing in hospice care. Because of this, she sees a lot of family members who get their parents tablets. It can be an iPad, or Android tablet. And it's used to facilitate cheap/free communication. (Don't worry, anything with app stores + in app payments are at fault, not $your_ecosystem.) The dark side, is when they start venturing around looking for "games". Now, think of what a game was 20 and 30 years ago. We're talking arcade, Nintendo, Atari.. That sort of thing. The psychological skinner-box wasn't really created as of yet (it was, but only in arcades, and even the bad ones people stayed away from). And then you have the "Freemium Apps". AKA money-bilking skinner boxes. Now, what makes these insidious, is the fact they ask for your credit card once, and keep it on file. Now, buying "virtual trash" is as easy as click click done. And conveniently drains your card. And it's done so well that you think you're doing with fake play money - when it's really your real account. My wife's already had a few clients got bit by this. It was a few thousand dollars, but enough to cause serious problems with someone who is on a fixed budget. Fortunately, the bank reversed much of it as fraudulent billing. Some of it was outside of dispute period, and was lost.

robocaptain 10y ago
I have an elderly family member with this exact problem. Even with constant reminding, it is an uphill battle. I suspect it is a combination of addiction but also "dark patterns" that essentially trick folks into spending money. One thing that helped is switching the family member to a True Link card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Link While not perfect, it does root out the obvious scammers and does make it much easier to push back and cancel those reccuring subscriptions that "some how" keep getting activated. I have no affiliation with True Link, but posting it in hopes it can help someone with a similar problem. Edit: Just now realized True Link has a YC affiliation, so maybe this is more on topic than I thought.
- koolba 10y ago
  Why not just remove the payment card from their account? You don't need to have a card on file to install free apps and if you have no intention of buying anything, there's no reason to have one on file at all.

DanBC 10y ago

I'd be interested to see some journalism around IAPs in apps aimed at Children. Talking Tom's Gold Run is a fun little endless runner. It's well made. My kid enjoys it. There's an IAP to turn off most ads, and because we play the app a lot I bought that, and some other bits and bobs. But I was looking at the IAPs and I have no idea how much I'd have to spend if I wanted to unlock everything - all the courses, all the characters, everything. The most expensive IAP is £79, and that wouldn't come close to unlocking everything. I don't think you have to buy anything, I think you could just grind the game to complete it with play not pay.

wturner 10y ago

When I worked at Expression College I use to talk and interact quite a bit with Gabe the founder.Suffice to say if you heard the way he spoke in private about "these people" (the game audience world) it would make you cringe even more. This was before he "made it", but was still in the game industry. Regardless, he's very smart in the most Machiavellian sense of the word. Some of his online talks are actually really enlightening. I'm grateful I'm not in that world. It reminds me of Donald Trump. Relentless hypocrisy, no shame, and the entire thing coupled with the grand illusion of success. And stop calling these "games" they're not! They're real-money auctions to have your name at the top of some silly todo list. lol

johny33 10y ago

Agree with the opinion that it's gambling addiction. I also quite often play poker at casinoz.club. After hard day at work such games help me to relax. But I've never played on money. I know a lot of people who spends hundreds dollars each week on gambling.