6 ms·

Why draw the line at those disorders? Or ar you perhaps talking about experiencing some of the symptoms of these disorders to a healthy extent - i.e. normal em

by eivarv 10y ago

Why draw the line at those disorders? Or ar you perhaps talking about experiencing some of the symptoms of these disorders to a healthy extent - i.e. normal emotions? Anxiety disorders and depressive disorders can be bad enough to wreak havoc on a persons life.

zaptheimpaler 10y ago
>Why draw the line at those disorders? >Anxiety disorders and depressive disorders can be bad enough to wreak havoc on a persons life. I am sure they can wreak havoc, having faced some myself. Not saying they are not real problems. I just think that in many cases, support of social groups, exercise etc. are more effective treatments than going to a therapist/psychiatrist or taking medication. For example, exercise is now proven to be about as effective or more as an antidepressant. Mindfulness is now being talked about as a very effective treatment for anxiety/depression. People have been saying this kind of stuff for years, but they had zero legitimacy and were laughed at before the science came along. Meditation/mindfulness was considered spiritual hippie-bullshit, now all of a sudden its a viable and effective treatment.. So it just makes me think, when we are talking about as nascent and complicated a science as psychology, there is some value in "folk remedies" and "common sense" which are all too often dismissed as not being scientific enough. Yet that still happens. Do we really have to wait for a hundred studies before we accept that there might be better solutions in common wisdom outside of the current science? Particularly given that many of those remedies can't cause any harm, there is no risk to trying it. Anyways, I am all for therapy and medication if thats what one wants. Just saying that an environment of disconnection breeds more mental illness, like an unsanitary environment breeds more physical illness.
- eivarv 10y ago
  > I just think that in many cases, support of social groups, exercise etc. are more effective treatments than going to a therapist/psychiatrist or taking medication. I'd be interested to know why you think so. If I remember correctly, exercise is not proven to be "about as effective or more as an antidepressant", but has been proven to provide some positive effect (i.e. relieve negative symptoms) in those suffering from mild to moderate depression (relative to controls). This might have changed since last I checked though - please correct me if I'm wrong! Mindfulness has been shown to be helpful in some circumstances, but then in a strictly defined sense - not just any old meditation. We definitely have to wait for many studies to draw any conclusions, that much is clear. Common wisdom might as well be common ignorance if we aren't rigorous. Mind you, I'm not trying to justify past or current practices or societal ills; I'm just saying that we can't throw epistemology to the wind because of our experiences, wants or beliefs.
  - yequalsx 10y ago
    My wife is a psychiatrist. She says that for anything less than severe depression anti-depressants don't work. Exercise and forcing oneself to be active and do stuff is more effective than drugs.
    - pif 10y ago
      > My wife is a psychiatrist. With all the due respect, one psychiatrist's opinion is not necessarily the same as many other psychiatrists' opinions.
      - yequalsx 10y ago
        No it is not. It is however better than my opinion or yours on the subject.
        pif 10y ago
        > It is however better than my opinion or yours on the subject. Sure, it is.
  - zaptheimpaler 10y ago
    Look, psychology just went through a replication crisis where more than 50% of findings could not be reproduced. All science is not equally valid, so it doesn't make sense to take social science results as seriously as say physics because one is a lot easier to study objectively. Given that, you could call exercising or mindfulness or (new technique) unproven. I say, if it obviously doesn't cause any harm, and it might help why not try it. "Throwing epistemology to the wind" here has no negative consequence. You can't draw a scientific conclusion about whether X is beneficial sure, but you can sure as hell try it and see if it helps you. Thats what I'm advocating for. Taking some control over your own treatment. Even the point you brought up about mindfulness being shown to be helpful in some circumstances - that does NOT mean any old meditation is unhelpful. In fact, given no other knowledge than that "X type of mindfulness practiced in Y way was Z% helpful" from a paper, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe that something similar to mindfulness would have similar beneficial effects rather than the inverse that its not helpful? Thats my point - we don't have to stick so rigidly to what is "proven" to be true (especially when the field went through a crisis where half of that so called "proven" stuff wasn't so true..)
- wastedhours 10y ago
  We also have to be wary of the fact in a number of situations for a lot of people their mental disorders may be being negatively reinforced by unhealthy social relationships or physical limitations. I know you used the "many cases" as a caveat, and appreciate the angle you're taking in making the point, but the notion that "an environment of disconnection breeds more mental illness" wont be the case for a lot of sufferers, and we shouldn't be leading the discussion down an avenue where if someone doesn't have those support networks, ability to get the benefit from exercise or has screwy personal relationships they feel as if that's a personal failure. (i.e. it'd be helpful if we normalised all avenues)
- DanBC 10y ago
  > exercise is now proven to be about as effective or more as an antidepressant Do you have a source for that? Because this cochrane collaboration seems to disagree with you. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > Attendance rates for exercise treatments ranged from 50% to 100%. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive. There has been a more recent meta analysis, but it's a bit frustrating to hear people keep repeating the claim that exercise is a treatment for depression, or that exercise is as effective as anti-depressants. The proper claim is that exercise might help with "resilience" - it might help prevent depression or prevent a relapse.
DanBC 10y ago
The jargon buzzword is "bio-psycho-social". Mild to moderate depression may respond to anti-depressants, may respond to an evidence based talking therapy, may respond to something like a gardening group activity, may respond to debt planning and financial advice. Treatment plans for depression should not focus on a single aspect of the bio-psycho-social stuff, but should try to address all of it.

by eivarv 10y ago

zaptheimpaler 10y ago

>Why draw the line at those disorders? >Anxiety disorders and depressive disorders can be bad enough to wreak havoc on a persons life. I am sure they can wreak havoc, having faced some myself. Not saying they are not real problems. I just think that in many cases, support of social groups, exercise etc. are more effective treatments than going to a therapist/psychiatrist or taking medication. For example, exercise is now proven to be about as effective or more as an antidepressant. Mindfulness is now being talked about as a very effective treatment for anxiety/depression. People have been saying this kind of stuff for years, but they had zero legitimacy and were laughed at before the science came along. Meditation/mindfulness was considered spiritual hippie-bullshit, now all of a sudden its a viable and effective treatment.. So it just makes me think, when we are talking about as nascent and complicated a science as psychology, there is some value in "folk remedies" and "common sense" which are all too often dismissed as not being scientific enough. Yet that still happens. Do we really have to wait for a hundred studies before we accept that there might be better solutions in common wisdom outside of the current science? Particularly given that many of those remedies can't cause any harm, there is no risk to trying it. Anyways, I am all for therapy and medication if thats what one wants. Just saying that an environment of disconnection breeds more mental illness, like an unsanitary environment breeds more physical illness.

eivarv 10y ago
> I just think that in many cases, support of social groups, exercise etc. are more effective treatments than going to a therapist/psychiatrist or taking medication. I'd be interested to know why you think so. If I remember correctly, exercise is not proven to be "about as effective or more as an antidepressant", but has been proven to provide some positive effect (i.e. relieve negative symptoms) in those suffering from mild to moderate depression (relative to controls). This might have changed since last I checked though - please correct me if I'm wrong! Mindfulness has been shown to be helpful in some circumstances, but then in a strictly defined sense - not just any old meditation. We definitely have to wait for many studies to draw any conclusions, that much is clear. Common wisdom might as well be common ignorance if we aren't rigorous. Mind you, I'm not trying to justify past or current practices or societal ills; I'm just saying that we can't throw epistemology to the wind because of our experiences, wants or beliefs.
- yequalsx 10y ago
  My wife is a psychiatrist. She says that for anything less than severe depression anti-depressants don't work. Exercise and forcing oneself to be active and do stuff is more effective than drugs.
  - pif 10y ago
    > My wife is a psychiatrist. With all the due respect, one psychiatrist's opinion is not necessarily the same as many other psychiatrists' opinions.
    - yequalsx 10y ago
      No it is not. It is however better than my opinion or yours on the subject.
      - pif 10y ago
        > It is however better than my opinion or yours on the subject. Sure, it is.
- zaptheimpaler 10y ago
  Look, psychology just went through a replication crisis where more than 50% of findings could not be reproduced. All science is not equally valid, so it doesn't make sense to take social science results as seriously as say physics because one is a lot easier to study objectively. Given that, you could call exercising or mindfulness or (new technique) unproven. I say, if it obviously doesn't cause any harm, and it might help why not try it. "Throwing epistemology to the wind" here has no negative consequence. You can't draw a scientific conclusion about whether X is beneficial sure, but you can sure as hell try it and see if it helps you. Thats what I'm advocating for. Taking some control over your own treatment. Even the point you brought up about mindfulness being shown to be helpful in some circumstances - that does NOT mean any old meditation is unhelpful. In fact, given no other knowledge than that "X type of mindfulness practiced in Y way was Z% helpful" from a paper, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe that something similar to mindfulness would have similar beneficial effects rather than the inverse that its not helpful? Thats my point - we don't have to stick so rigidly to what is "proven" to be true (especially when the field went through a crisis where half of that so called "proven" stuff wasn't so true..)
wastedhours 10y ago
We also have to be wary of the fact in a number of situations for a lot of people their mental disorders may be being negatively reinforced by unhealthy social relationships or physical limitations. I know you used the "many cases" as a caveat, and appreciate the angle you're taking in making the point, but the notion that "an environment of disconnection breeds more mental illness" wont be the case for a lot of sufferers, and we shouldn't be leading the discussion down an avenue where if someone doesn't have those support networks, ability to get the benefit from exercise or has screwy personal relationships they feel as if that's a personal failure. (i.e. it'd be helpful if we normalised all avenues)
DanBC 10y ago
> exercise is now proven to be about as effective or more as an antidepressant Do you have a source for that? Because this cochrane collaboration seems to disagree with you. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > Attendance rates for exercise treatments ranged from 50% to 100%. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive. There has been a more recent meta analysis, but it's a bit frustrating to hear people keep repeating the claim that exercise is a treatment for depression, or that exercise is as effective as anti-depressants. The proper claim is that exercise might help with "resilience" - it might help prevent depression or prevent a relapse.

DanBC 10y ago

The jargon buzzword is "bio-psycho-social". Mild to moderate depression may respond to anti-depressants, may respond to an evidence based talking therapy, may respond to something like a gardening group activity, may respond to debt planning and financial advice. Treatment plans for depression should not focus on a single aspect of the bio-psycho-social stuff, but should try to address all of it.