5 ms·

I've taken over deployments of UniFi gear and do not have nice things to say about them. We typically deal in the Aerohive and Meraki world and I find the Ubiqu

by uean 10y ago

I've taken over deployments of UniFi gear and do not have nice things to say about them. We typically deal in the Aerohive and Meraki world and I find the Ubiquiti zero-handoff to be terrible (I see real-world handoff times of up to 8 seconds in some cases) auto channel selection inneffective, band-steering implementation completely broken, and then just some basic lack of features of things that, to be fair, I wouldn't expect at this price point (L7 firewall, etc) but, given how aggressive some of the marketing has been that the Ubiquiti gear can compete with enterprise grade stuff makes you start to miss the enterprise features. It's too bad that my experience with them is not good as I want to like the stuff, but anything over 3 access points in a typical office environment with competing RF and need for seamless handoff, this stuff just doesn't cut it. I'm a network admin for a small managed service provider. Happy to provide more detail if needed:)

mrb 10y ago
Sounds like you have been dealing with older gear. Zero handoff is a deprecated feature which is no longer supported in current products. Nowadays Ubiquiti simply recommends roaming: https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144590-UniFi-What-is-Zero-Handoff- https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144590-UniFi-What...
- uean 10y ago
  Yes - probably, though our most recent takeover was in August and I didn't see that link. Just knew it was broken and sounds like they're admitting their implementation of an 802.11 standard is broken to me :) The particular link is another gripe I have with Ubiquiti - most of their articles are left up with referral links to new documentation. Here's an example - up until Dec 3rd (from at least October) Ubiquiti marked their only documentation on setting up the UniFi Controller to run as a Windows service (1) as 'Outdated' (2). Dec 3rd they updated it with new instructions (1) - https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144550--Outdated-UniFi-Run-the-controller-as-a-Windows-service https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144550--Outdated-... (2) - https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/Run-UniFi-as-a-Windows-service/td-p/1713105 https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/Run-UniFi-as-a-...
  - realityking 10y ago
    Just to be clear, Ubiquiti's implementation of Zero Handoff (and all similar solutions) are not 802.11 standard. They are creative hacks that create one big virtual APs out of many APs.
    - cdsx 10y ago
      Does anyone know a good way to implement wireless roaming around a large home? I had Ubiquity's Zero-Handoff on my list of things to check out, but seems they don't use it anymore, and as above it was a hack anyway. I have been for years using (and recommending to others) multiple access points (of any brand) wired together and just set them up with the same SSID and passwords. Usually works mostly OK, although VoIP tends to drop out moving around the house (and thus changing BSSID). Keen to fix the VoIP issues. Maybe I'm missing out on something such as using special routers or some 802.11 standard that might work better.
      - crest 10y ago
        Have the APs limit the RSSI and let the client roam.
        windexh8er 10y ago
        This. If the OP of this thread would take a few minutes and read through Ubiquiti forums they'd know that there have been 10's of conversations wherein someone from Ubiquiti or a power use has explained why you shouldn't be using the old ZHO hacks. I said this yesterday in another Ubiquiti focused comment, but 1) ZHO forces all AP into the same L2 network and 2) ZHO puts all AP on the same channel and SSID. The last one should be blatant enough for anyone to know that that's not going to scale or be performant. ZHO was implemented for old, low bandwidth devices that needed to be on the same network. Full stop. Don't use ZHO! Beyond that do some due diligence when setting up your networks. Even with 802.11n/ac in the 5GHz range you should be aware of best spectrum usage, about things like DFS and consider how wide of a band you're allocating to the channel selection your making (hint: it impacts overlap). Do not do not do not use auto channel selection unless you're forced to. I get it, you may not have control over this in a dense environment (apartment) but if you can control your airspace (reasonably so) map out channel utilization especially if you have more than one AP. Then go to the next step and figure out the worse spots for reception in your house are and, as the person above me states, tune RSSI down to get clients to get kicked as they "roam". This will force them to reselect much faster. One comment stated 8 second reassociations. That's just bad tuning and clear ignorance to the problem - you'd have the same thing with any other vendor. This wasn't hard to find and there are many others, use it: http://securityuncorked.com/2013/11/the-best-damn-802-11ac-channel-allocation-graphics/ http://securityuncorked.com/2013/11/the-best-damn-802-11ac-c... I think Ubiquiti makes some really great products for the price. Have they violated GPL? Quite possibly but as others have said I don't think that's been proven judicially as of yet. You will get one of the best products at this price point though and, when setup correctly, will be much more performance than things like Eero or Google Wifi that relies on wireless as the backhaul between APs. If you're saying you can't use cabled infrastructure there are options. 1) Powerline is now "decent" as in 400-700 Mbit are attainable depending on your situation, they're also much cheaper (look for HomePlug AV2 standardization) now 2) Dedicated, directional focused wireless backhaul is the better option than an omni backhaul between something that is already handling your clients. That is Ubiquiti's forte. They only recently released the UniFi product but you can use NanoBeam, Bullet or NanoStation in your home to move things around to dedicated AP. Ultimately if you want good wifi you have to pay for it and plan and deploy it correctly. The second half of it is why we have Eero and Google Wifi - because people don't do that. They buy Ubiquiti or some other enterprise focused WLAN solution, plug it in and do the minimal work and say it doesn't work or sucks without RTFM. Finally if you want "fast roaming" you should know what you want before buying a product since the device OS needs to support it. Apple has basically said they're supporting 802.11r: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628. And 802.11r is in the latest builds of UniFi firmware, but not really exposed to the GUI config because, well, people will probably shoot themselves in the foot with it. Edit: added link to channel allocation graphics
ComputerGuru 10y ago
What would you recommend for a similar configuration as the OP's? I've ended up using pfSense combined with enterprise switches and ultra-dumb access points with 802.11Q support to simply - as transparently as possible - bring the wireless devices into the network administration fold. I've taken to using the higher end TP-Link AC routers as my APs, but have played with Ubiquiti instead as well.
- uean 10y ago
  Totally and entirely depends on price point. If I get to be in charge of your wallet and you promise not to look at your VISA until after I leave, you'll end up with Meraki all over the place. It does have its flaws, but they are minor in the grand scheme of things compared to everything it does right. As for the OP, its a tough call. My complaints with Ubiquiti are in a heavy use congested RF environment. Not really much to say when comparing to a 5000 sqft house. We generally work around a budget but if I dont have to care about cost I'll deploy Meraki, then Aerohive, then get forced into Sonicpoint, and then there's a few other options I'd just feel bad and they don't deserve the HN referral traffic.
  - newman314 10y ago
    Meraki is nice but I don't like the cloud based bit as well as the licensing.
    - trome 10y ago
      Yeah, the yearly licensing is brutal, but it does encourage you to forklift it after a few years & upgrade.
      - danudey 10y ago
        I'm not sure how artificial barriers to keeping the same hardware makes sense, and selling hardware that also requires licensing is a lot harder than selling e.g. Ubiquiti stuff.
r1ch 10y ago
I have to agree. Ubiquiti have some great marketing and slick looking UIs on their gear, but the hardware is not enterprise grade. They use standard Qualcomm/Atheros chips that almost every wireless router uses (Source: https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/5592/4/ubiquiti-unifi-access-points-review-intern https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/5592/4/ubiquiti-unifi-acces...) so you are basically paying for software with a flashy UI and proprietary cloud configuration.
- PaulHoule 10y ago
  Ruckus hardware is better but 10x as expensive.
  - MrVitaliy 10y ago
    Have you looked at Xclaim offerings? It's ruckus hardware but less enterprisy.
  - wcfields 10y ago
    The Ruckus R600's are my go-to. I've done several offices and retail installations with those. A close second is Xirrus, their APs are a bit bigger is size and look like oversized smoke detectors though. Though, if you work in events they are perfect: Controller built into the unit, and they have weird configurations of radios so you can deploy 16 directional radios on one device. Great for conferences where you can setup 2 of those in the corners, turn off the radios not pointing at the guests and have total airspace supremacy.
dorfsmay 10y ago
> We typically deal in the Aerohive and Meraki world But the aren't in the same price category, are they?

by uean 10y ago

mrb 10y ago

Sounds like you have been dealing with older gear. Zero handoff is a deprecated feature which is no longer supported in current products. Nowadays Ubiquiti simply recommends roaming: https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144590-UniFi-What-is-Zero-Handoff- https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144590-UniFi-What...

uean 10y ago
Yes - probably, though our most recent takeover was in August and I didn't see that link. Just knew it was broken and sounds like they're admitting their implementation of an 802.11 standard is broken to me :) The particular link is another gripe I have with Ubiquiti - most of their articles are left up with referral links to new documentation. Here's an example - up until Dec 3rd (from at least October) Ubiquiti marked their only documentation on setting up the UniFi Controller to run as a Windows service (1) as 'Outdated' (2). Dec 3rd they updated it with new instructions (1) - https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144550--Outdated-UniFi-Run-the-controller-as-a-Windows-service https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205144550--Outdated-... (2) - https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/Run-UniFi-as-a-Windows-service/td-p/1713105 https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/Run-UniFi-as-a-...
- realityking 10y ago
  Just to be clear, Ubiquiti's implementation of Zero Handoff (and all similar solutions) are not 802.11 standard. They are creative hacks that create one big virtual APs out of many APs.
  - cdsx 10y ago
    Does anyone know a good way to implement wireless roaming around a large home? I had Ubiquity's Zero-Handoff on my list of things to check out, but seems they don't use it anymore, and as above it was a hack anyway. I have been for years using (and recommending to others) multiple access points (of any brand) wired together and just set them up with the same SSID and passwords. Usually works mostly OK, although VoIP tends to drop out moving around the house (and thus changing BSSID). Keen to fix the VoIP issues. Maybe I'm missing out on something such as using special routers or some 802.11 standard that might work better.
    - crest 10y ago
      Have the APs limit the RSSI and let the client roam.
      - windexh8er 10y ago
        This. If the OP of this thread would take a few minutes and read through Ubiquiti forums they'd know that there have been 10's of conversations wherein someone from Ubiquiti or a power use has explained why you shouldn't be using the old ZHO hacks. I said this yesterday in another Ubiquiti focused comment, but 1) ZHO forces all AP into the same L2 network and 2) ZHO puts all AP on the same channel and SSID. The last one should be blatant enough for anyone to know that that's not going to scale or be performant. ZHO was implemented for old, low bandwidth devices that needed to be on the same network. Full stop. Don't use ZHO! Beyond that do some due diligence when setting up your networks. Even with 802.11n/ac in the 5GHz range you should be aware of best spectrum usage, about things like DFS and consider how wide of a band you're allocating to the channel selection your making (hint: it impacts overlap). Do not do not do not use auto channel selection unless you're forced to. I get it, you may not have control over this in a dense environment (apartment) but if you can control your airspace (reasonably so) map out channel utilization especially if you have more than one AP. Then go to the next step and figure out the worse spots for reception in your house are and, as the person above me states, tune RSSI down to get clients to get kicked as they "roam". This will force them to reselect much faster. One comment stated 8 second reassociations. That's just bad tuning and clear ignorance to the problem - you'd have the same thing with any other vendor. This wasn't hard to find and there are many others, use it: http://securityuncorked.com/2013/11/the-best-damn-802-11ac-channel-allocation-graphics/ http://securityuncorked.com/2013/11/the-best-damn-802-11ac-c... I think Ubiquiti makes some really great products for the price. Have they violated GPL? Quite possibly but as others have said I don't think that's been proven judicially as of yet. You will get one of the best products at this price point though and, when setup correctly, will be much more performance than things like Eero or Google Wifi that relies on wireless as the backhaul between APs. If you're saying you can't use cabled infrastructure there are options. 1) Powerline is now "decent" as in 400-700 Mbit are attainable depending on your situation, they're also much cheaper (look for HomePlug AV2 standardization) now 2) Dedicated, directional focused wireless backhaul is the better option than an omni backhaul between something that is already handling your clients. That is Ubiquiti's forte. They only recently released the UniFi product but you can use NanoBeam, Bullet or NanoStation in your home to move things around to dedicated AP. Ultimately if you want good wifi you have to pay for it and plan and deploy it correctly. The second half of it is why we have Eero and Google Wifi - because people don't do that. They buy Ubiquiti or some other enterprise focused WLAN solution, plug it in and do the minimal work and say it doesn't work or sucks without RTFM. Finally if you want "fast roaming" you should know what you want before buying a product since the device OS needs to support it. Apple has basically said they're supporting 802.11r: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628. And 802.11r is in the latest builds of UniFi firmware, but not really exposed to the GUI config because, well, people will probably shoot themselves in the foot with it. Edit: added link to channel allocation graphics

ComputerGuru 10y ago

What would you recommend for a similar configuration as the OP's? I've ended up using pfSense combined with enterprise switches and ultra-dumb access points with 802.11Q support to simply - as transparently as possible - bring the wireless devices into the network administration fold. I've taken to using the higher end TP-Link AC routers as my APs, but have played with Ubiquiti instead as well.

uean 10y ago
Totally and entirely depends on price point. If I get to be in charge of your wallet and you promise not to look at your VISA until after I leave, you'll end up with Meraki all over the place. It does have its flaws, but they are minor in the grand scheme of things compared to everything it does right. As for the OP, its a tough call. My complaints with Ubiquiti are in a heavy use congested RF environment. Not really much to say when comparing to a 5000 sqft house. We generally work around a budget but if I dont have to care about cost I'll deploy Meraki, then Aerohive, then get forced into Sonicpoint, and then there's a few other options I'd just feel bad and they don't deserve the HN referral traffic.
- newman314 10y ago
  Meraki is nice but I don't like the cloud based bit as well as the licensing.
  - trome 10y ago
    Yeah, the yearly licensing is brutal, but it does encourage you to forklift it after a few years & upgrade.
    - danudey 10y ago
      I'm not sure how artificial barriers to keeping the same hardware makes sense, and selling hardware that also requires licensing is a lot harder than selling e.g. Ubiquiti stuff.

r1ch 10y ago

I have to agree. Ubiquiti have some great marketing and slick looking UIs on their gear, but the hardware is not enterprise grade. They use standard Qualcomm/Atheros chips that almost every wireless router uses (Source: https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/5592/4/ubiquiti-unifi-access-points-review-intern https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/5592/4/ubiquiti-unifi-acces...) so you are basically paying for software with a flashy UI and proprietary cloud configuration.

PaulHoule 10y ago
Ruckus hardware is better but 10x as expensive.
- MrVitaliy 10y ago
  Have you looked at Xclaim offerings? It's ruckus hardware but less enterprisy.
- wcfields 10y ago
  The Ruckus R600's are my go-to. I've done several offices and retail installations with those. A close second is Xirrus, their APs are a bit bigger is size and look like oversized smoke detectors though. Though, if you work in events they are perfect: Controller built into the unit, and they have weird configurations of radios so you can deploy 16 directional radios on one device. Great for conferences where you can setup 2 of those in the corners, turn off the radios not pointing at the guests and have total airspace supremacy.

dorfsmay 10y ago

> We typically deal in the Aerohive and Meraki world But the aren't in the same price category, are they?