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> but I can't see any way that NPCs in a virtual reality/simulated universe can be conscious If in the future we have even faster computers, and ability to sca

by ozy 10y ago

> but I can't see any way that NPCs in a virtual reality/simulated universe can be conscious If in the future we have even faster computers, and ability to scan all the molecules in your brain (at good enough resolution, but not beyond Heisenberg). Then we simulate the chemistry going on. Do we now have consciousness in a computer? It is hard to see how billions of neurons together create consciousness. Just like how it hard to see how computer can be conscious. But claiming "impossible" is quite a strong claim. How do you support it? If our universe is a simulation, it is one of atoms or quantum fields/gravity or something that gives rise to those. Anything else we see is build from those things. Therefor consciousness seems like an effect grounded in this universe.

DonaldFisk 10y ago
The previous discussion with naasking is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11823781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11823781 At this point I have nothing further to add.
- state_less 10y ago
  It might be worth trying on the idea that you don't exist. At least not in the way you might imagine. Consider where your consciousness goes when you fall asleep and aren't dreaming. Or when you're put under for surgery. I don't know if you've been put under, but for me one moment they were putting the mask over my face, and the next moment I awoke and the surgery was finished. I didn't experience any passage of time. You could say I wasn't here or didn't exist during that period. It seems like certain things have to be occurring in the brain to say that you are awake, conscious and here. So this consciousness has certain dependencies, now what are they? Can we deactivate certain parts of your brain and you still feel here? I think so, but if we take away enough, you're no longer here. And I think if we add them back, your experience becomes more vivid and here, like slowly coming to in the morning, or when a deaf person has a hearing implant added so they can hear again. So having the feeling of being here is a higher order thought, depending on the hardware faculties to be functioning. And that hardware can be substituted for non-biological equipment and you can be conscious of the readings of the sensor. It also comes in degrees, meaning we can be more or less here. Which is to say, maybe the NPC doesn't have to be biological. It just needs to have the same dependencies to exist that exist now for you. You couldn't be reading this in your sleep, you read it when all the dependencies exist to say, "hmmm, that's interesting but my left frontal lobe says..." PS. I hear you have nothing further to add, but my own left frontal lobe was compelled to chat. Apologies if it disturbed you, have a good one.
  - DonaldFisk 10y ago
    You've made some good points not in the original discussion, e.g. on anaesthesia. Perhaps it suspends itself for the duration, goes somewhere else (not necessarily a physical place) and doesn't keep its memory of that when you come round. My position can be summarized thus: if someone made a Sonic the Hedgehog toy which could interact meaningfully with its environment I would entertain the possibility it had some rudimentary consciousness. But unlike the character in the computer game, that wouldn't be a simulation. Could the character you see on the screen in the computer game be conscious? I don't think so.

by ozy 10y ago

DonaldFisk 10y ago

The previous discussion with naasking is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11823781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11823781 At this point I have nothing further to add.

state_less 10y ago
It might be worth trying on the idea that you don't exist. At least not in the way you might imagine. Consider where your consciousness goes when you fall asleep and aren't dreaming. Or when you're put under for surgery. I don't know if you've been put under, but for me one moment they were putting the mask over my face, and the next moment I awoke and the surgery was finished. I didn't experience any passage of time. You could say I wasn't here or didn't exist during that period. It seems like certain things have to be occurring in the brain to say that you are awake, conscious and here. So this consciousness has certain dependencies, now what are they? Can we deactivate certain parts of your brain and you still feel here? I think so, but if we take away enough, you're no longer here. And I think if we add them back, your experience becomes more vivid and here, like slowly coming to in the morning, or when a deaf person has a hearing implant added so they can hear again. So having the feeling of being here is a higher order thought, depending on the hardware faculties to be functioning. And that hardware can be substituted for non-biological equipment and you can be conscious of the readings of the sensor. It also comes in degrees, meaning we can be more or less here. Which is to say, maybe the NPC doesn't have to be biological. It just needs to have the same dependencies to exist that exist now for you. You couldn't be reading this in your sleep, you read it when all the dependencies exist to say, "hmmm, that's interesting but my left frontal lobe says..." PS. I hear you have nothing further to add, but my own left frontal lobe was compelled to chat. Apologies if it disturbed you, have a good one.
- DonaldFisk 10y ago
  You've made some good points not in the original discussion, e.g. on anaesthesia. Perhaps it suspends itself for the duration, goes somewhere else (not necessarily a physical place) and doesn't keep its memory of that when you come round. My position can be summarized thus: if someone made a Sonic the Hedgehog toy which could interact meaningfully with its environment I would entertain the possibility it had some rudimentary consciousness. But unlike the character in the computer game, that wouldn't be a simulation. Could the character you see on the screen in the computer game be conscious? I don't think so.