10 ms·

I never disagree with a client. Even if I internally feel it won't work in reality, I always start my response with "That's an excellent idea you proposed, let

by vcool07 10y ago

I never disagree with a client. Even if I internally feel it won't work in reality, I always start my response with "That's an excellent idea you proposed, let me try if it works and get back to you". I come back after a day or two as to why the proposal won't work (if it was a bad idea to begin with) with sufficient data. Client is happy you that you considered his proposal and you've avoided a potential standoff that could've existed for the same duration !

alltakendamned 10y ago
Depending on the context in which you do this, you've also just wasted 2 days of billable time. If you know it won't work from the start, you're not providing value to your customer by fake considering it.
- JoachimS 10y ago
  Good counterpoint. Obvious errors you should not spend much time on. But providing some references to why is probably better than simply stating "no". And I don't think the parent comment suggested to fake work and bill for work not done. We should always be honest.
  - croon 10y ago
    I don't think the responder suggested to fake work either, but it's still 2 days wasted and no work done.
    - jagtesh 10y ago
      It's not two days wasted because you have other clients. It's like concurrency around an IO request. No time wasted.
    - alexdowad 10y ago
      Presumably he is working on other things in the meantime.
- wiz21c 10y ago
  You assume that your customer values things like you do. If the customer is happy he'll feel better; the fact that is happiness is economically viable is an entirely different matter.
hayd 10y ago
and it's billable!
JoachimS 10y ago
Interesting. We usually say that a good consultant should be senior enough to stand up to the customer and at least be able to inquire the basis for something. And also disagree when the customer is clearly wrong. But your way of doing it clearly removes the initial head-on. One could always reason about things. But to promise to investigate (and then deliver) looks (and is) professional. But I will never say yes when a customer suggests to "encrypt dsta using the cipher md5". Yes it has happened. More than once.
- sirclueless 10y ago
  So, to follow the diplomatic approach here: Client: "Encrypt our data using the md5 cipher." Consultant: "I will investigate the feasibility of this." ... two days pass ... Consultant: "I have considered your proposal. I believe we should encrypt your data with SHA-256. md5 is insecure, here's several references. SHA-256 is much more secure and more popular. It is a NIST standard, and just as cheap." Client: (probably) "OK, if it costs the same and is more secure, sounds good to us."
  - chungy 10y ago
    Neither of those are encryption ciphers. the SHA-256 suggestion doesn't buy anything.
  - jfrankamp 10y ago
    Consultant: Oh and you'll never get your data back. Client: Ok.WHAAAAT?
  - p0nce 10y ago
    Except you can't encrypt with a hash function.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      I once saw that particular confusion in a security audit report that a company was using as part of their sales materials. I did flag it up as indicating that there might be something a bit fishy about the security audit if they made such an elementary error but I suspect the CEO (multi billion pound company) had already made the decision so what I thought was irrelevant :-)
davewasthere 10y ago
That might be better than what I do. I disagree, perhaps not often, but there are bits of functionality that I think just aren't justifiable/cost-effective. So I try and dissuade them. Although sometimes I might be a bit too vocal. That said, I do try and say that, at the end of the day they can definitely just say "shush... Just build it" and I will. But I'm honestly trying to help them build the best product we can, as effectively as possible.
IndianAstronaut 10y ago
This is a good tactic in the workplace as well when dealing with management and internal customers.
Sgoettschkes 10y ago
I'm not sure that this blows the client away tbh. I had much more success with being critical but within reason. If a client suggests a feature I do not believe will work or is not worth the time, my approach is to agree that this is technically possible and it will take X amount of time with Y drawbacks (e.g. harder to maintain in the future, manual effort later on). And then I'll tell them my opinion about it from a business perspective. I don't push in any direction and make it clear that if this is what they want, I'll get to work right away. But then again, I only work with clients who appreciate feedback and don't think of me as a person turning coffee into code ;)
- gk1 10y ago
  I'm with you. I view my clients as partners with whom I can speak openly--without sugarcoating, dumbing things down, or worrying about their feelings. It may feel uncomfortable to say "no" or "that's a bad idea" to the person who's paying you, but in the long term it's better for the relationship. After all, they're paying you for your expertise, not to fulfill their every wish.
Rainymood 10y ago
I caught my Macro professor doing this and it works wonders. It really encourages people to ask questions, even if they might think they are inane. He always started with a ~sincere~ "X, that is a really good question." It makes everyone feel really welcomed to give their input no matter how small. Even though it might not be "sincere" at all it still feel like it is. How would you feel if you asked a question in class and the professor said: "That's actually a really stupid question but I'll answer it anyway." Good job.
- wapz 10y ago
  My biology lab instructor (she was a grad student at the time) started the first day of class saying "don't worry there are no dumb questions." About 30 minutes into the lab someone asked a fairly unintelligent question and the instructor goes "well that was a dumb question.." I think she learned her lesson after that though. You gotta start somewhere!
- kasparsklavins 10y ago
  In my experience, the _stupid_ questions are the best ones, provided they are on topic. They hint at an edge case or something not covered deeply enough.
Jugurtha 10y ago
That's a classic. While working on the David, Michelangelo had the unwelcome visit of Piero Soderini (statesman, sponsor, etc) who suggested that the nose was too thick. Michelangelo feigned reworking the nose and some say sprinkled a handful of marble dust to make the trick credible, then asked Soderini if he liked it now. He said it looked better.
- taneq 10y ago
  A very early example of adding a duck. (See http://bedtimestoriesforengineers.com/the-duck/ http://bedtimestoriesforengineers.com/the-duck/ )
3minus1 10y ago
So disingenuously humor the client for a day or two before shooting their idea. Honestly, if I was your client and this happened a few times, I would start to wonder why you lack the expertise to immediately know ideas won't work.
- sauronlord 10y ago
  The client is not talking for the sake of talking. They are expressing a desire, a need or a want Almost always you can dig down to their motivation and get a better idea of what they are _really_ after, even if the clients proposed "solution" is technically impossible. Your tone says something about your situation.
  - 3minus1 10y ago
    I'm not sure if you understood me. I don't think it's a good idea humor your clients. In fact, I think if could hurt you if they ever get wise to you bullshit.
WhitneyLand 10y ago
If someone recognizes an impractical or suboptimal idea, I prefer it to be called out immediately for discussion so we can move past it to a better idea. It helps if clients think like Darwin: "I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as the facts are shown to be opposed to it."

by vcool07 10y ago

alltakendamned 10y ago

Depending on the context in which you do this, you've also just wasted 2 days of billable time. If you know it won't work from the start, you're not providing value to your customer by fake considering it.

JoachimS 10y ago
Good counterpoint. Obvious errors you should not spend much time on. But providing some references to why is probably better than simply stating "no". And I don't think the parent comment suggested to fake work and bill for work not done. We should always be honest.
- croon 10y ago
  I don't think the responder suggested to fake work either, but it's still 2 days wasted and no work done.
  - jagtesh 10y ago
    It's not two days wasted because you have other clients. It's like concurrency around an IO request. No time wasted.
  - alexdowad 10y ago
    Presumably he is working on other things in the meantime.
wiz21c 10y ago
You assume that your customer values things like you do. If the customer is happy he'll feel better; the fact that is happiness is economically viable is an entirely different matter.

hayd 10y ago

and it's billable!

JoachimS 10y ago

Interesting. We usually say that a good consultant should be senior enough to stand up to the customer and at least be able to inquire the basis for something. And also disagree when the customer is clearly wrong. But your way of doing it clearly removes the initial head-on. One could always reason about things. But to promise to investigate (and then deliver) looks (and is) professional. But I will never say yes when a customer suggests to "encrypt dsta using the cipher md5". Yes it has happened. More than once.

sirclueless 10y ago
So, to follow the diplomatic approach here: Client: "Encrypt our data using the md5 cipher." Consultant: "I will investigate the feasibility of this." ... two days pass ... Consultant: "I have considered your proposal. I believe we should encrypt your data with SHA-256. md5 is insecure, here's several references. SHA-256 is much more secure and more popular. It is a NIST standard, and just as cheap." Client: (probably) "OK, if it costs the same and is more secure, sounds good to us."
- chungy 10y ago
  Neither of those are encryption ciphers. the SHA-256 suggestion doesn't buy anything.
- jfrankamp 10y ago
  Consultant: Oh and you'll never get your data back. Client: Ok.WHAAAAT?
- p0nce 10y ago
  Except you can't encrypt with a hash function.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    I once saw that particular confusion in a security audit report that a company was using as part of their sales materials. I did flag it up as indicating that there might be something a bit fishy about the security audit if they made such an elementary error but I suspect the CEO (multi billion pound company) had already made the decision so what I thought was irrelevant :-)

davewasthere 10y ago

That might be better than what I do. I disagree, perhaps not often, but there are bits of functionality that I think just aren't justifiable/cost-effective. So I try and dissuade them. Although sometimes I might be a bit too vocal. That said, I do try and say that, at the end of the day they can definitely just say "shush... Just build it" and I will. But I'm honestly trying to help them build the best product we can, as effectively as possible.

IndianAstronaut 10y ago

This is a good tactic in the workplace as well when dealing with management and internal customers.

Sgoettschkes 10y ago

I'm not sure that this blows the client away tbh. I had much more success with being critical but within reason. If a client suggests a feature I do not believe will work or is not worth the time, my approach is to agree that this is technically possible and it will take X amount of time with Y drawbacks (e.g. harder to maintain in the future, manual effort later on). And then I'll tell them my opinion about it from a business perspective. I don't push in any direction and make it clear that if this is what they want, I'll get to work right away. But then again, I only work with clients who appreciate feedback and don't think of me as a person turning coffee into code ;)

gk1 10y ago
I'm with you. I view my clients as partners with whom I can speak openly--without sugarcoating, dumbing things down, or worrying about their feelings. It may feel uncomfortable to say "no" or "that's a bad idea" to the person who's paying you, but in the long term it's better for the relationship. After all, they're paying you for your expertise, not to fulfill their every wish.

Rainymood 10y ago

I caught my Macro professor doing this and it works wonders. It really encourages people to ask questions, even if they might think they are inane. He always started with a ~sincere~ "X, that is a really good question." It makes everyone feel really welcomed to give their input no matter how small. Even though it might not be "sincere" at all it still feel like it is. How would you feel if you asked a question in class and the professor said: "That's actually a really stupid question but I'll answer it anyway." Good job.

wapz 10y ago
My biology lab instructor (she was a grad student at the time) started the first day of class saying "don't worry there are no dumb questions." About 30 minutes into the lab someone asked a fairly unintelligent question and the instructor goes "well that was a dumb question.." I think she learned her lesson after that though. You gotta start somewhere!
kasparsklavins 10y ago
In my experience, the _stupid_ questions are the best ones, provided they are on topic. They hint at an edge case or something not covered deeply enough.

Jugurtha 10y ago

That's a classic. While working on the David, Michelangelo had the unwelcome visit of Piero Soderini (statesman, sponsor, etc) who suggested that the nose was too thick. Michelangelo feigned reworking the nose and some say sprinkled a handful of marble dust to make the trick credible, then asked Soderini if he liked it now. He said it looked better.

taneq 10y ago
A very early example of adding a duck. (See http://bedtimestoriesforengineers.com/the-duck/ http://bedtimestoriesforengineers.com/the-duck/ )

3minus1 10y ago

So disingenuously humor the client for a day or two before shooting their idea. Honestly, if I was your client and this happened a few times, I would start to wonder why you lack the expertise to immediately know ideas won't work.

sauronlord 10y ago
The client is not talking for the sake of talking. They are expressing a desire, a need or a want Almost always you can dig down to their motivation and get a better idea of what they are _really_ after, even if the clients proposed "solution" is technically impossible. Your tone says something about your situation.
- 3minus1 10y ago
  I'm not sure if you understood me. I don't think it's a good idea humor your clients. In fact, I think if could hurt you if they ever get wise to you bullshit.

WhitneyLand 10y ago

If someone recognizes an impractical or suboptimal idea, I prefer it to be called out immediately for discussion so we can move past it to a better idea. It helps if clients think like Darwin: "I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as the facts are shown to be opposed to it."