5 ms·

It would have some interesting implications, politically. The democratic sense of "The People" rejected the issue and failed to take care of it through democrat

by kitsuac 10y ago

It would have some interesting implications, politically. The democratic sense of "The People" rejected the issue and failed to take care of it through democratic and mundane day-to-day decisions. But the uber-wealthy who are often considered absolute enemies of "The People" had to step up and save the entire planet.

mathattack 10y ago
Is it possible that solving the great challenges of humanity today (global poverty, climate change, nuclear non-proliferation) stretch the ability of democracies to solve? I'm an anti-elitist libertarian at heart, but the "let everyone do as they will" mindset may cause problems. (And I understand that elites get it wrong much of the time)
- kitsuac 10y ago
  Everyone gets it wrong much of the time, seems like the question may be more about who gets it wrong a little less often.
- tammer 10y ago
  Remember that a function of at least the American Constitution is to smooth processes of change over many years for the purposes of stability. Climate change is a particular challenge here: immediate action is required, but warning signs are too diffuse to work against political inertia.
- jacobolus 10y ago
  I think democracy would be in much better shape if there weren’t such massive campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry to a wide range of politicians.
  - kitsuac 10y ago
    But that's a reflection of "The People" and their will. People want their existing jobs and status quo. They care about next week's pay check. Not a theoretical tidal wave that people they don't know say will happen if they don't stop working on fossil fuels and switch to being a cashier at Wendy's. To separate that reality of will from democracy would make it no longer democratic.
    - Maarten88 10y ago
      Campaign Contributions are imo clearly not a reflection of the will of the people. They are a reflection of business interests, protecting the status quo and working against balanced arguments on public policy. A reflection of The People would be simply their democratic vote, informed by balanced and unsubsidized arguments from both sides.
      - int_19h 10y ago
        > What if The People's democratic vote is to commit collective long term suicide for short term gains? I mean, obviously, individually, it's up to each person to choose. But when the majority chooses for everyone (including the minority), is the minority bound to respect that decision?
    - philipov 10y ago
      > 'They care about next week's pay check.' And whose fault do you think that is... There can be no talk of the will of the people when they are beholden to the coercion of the elites through structured economic insecurity.
    - coldpie 10y ago
      > But that's a reflection of "The People" and their will. I don't think so. I need to heat my house or I will die, so I pay the energy company. But, my "will" is that climate change is the most important issue today, and I would greatly like to increase subsidies for alternative energy and funds for climate science. If the energy company lobbies against that, then they are using my money to lobby against my will. It's easy to extrapolate this to the majority of the energy company's subscribers. You can't say that corporate lobbying is a reflection of the country's will.
    - int_19h 10y ago
      "A third objection is that Easter Islanders surely wouldn’t have been so foolish as to cut down all their trees, when the consequences would have been so obvious to them. As Catherine Orliac expressed it, “Why destroy a forest that one needs for his [i.e., the Easter Islanders’] material and spiritual survival?” This is indeed a key question, one that has nagged not only Catherine Orliac but also my University of California students, me, and everyone else who has wondered about self-inflicted environmental damage. I have often asked myself, “What did the Easter Islander who cut down the last palm tree say while he was doing it?” Like modern loggers, did he shout “Jobs, not trees!”? Or: “Technology will solve our problems, never fear, we’ll find a substitute for wood”? Or: “We don’t have proof that there aren’t palms somewhere else on Easter, we need more research, your proposed ban on logging is premature and driven by fear-mongering”? Similar questions arise for every society that has inadvertently damaged its environment." - Jared Diamond, "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (A must read book, by the way.)
- buzzy_hacker 10y ago
  Perhaps, although I don't believe another system of government would be better suited to solve it. The problem with not addressing climate change, for example, is greater concern for personal interests over the general welfare. In this case, fossil fuel companies prioritize their profits over the planet's well-being. That prioritization is the source of fossil fuel lobbying and anti-science news that supposedly refutes climate change. Theoretically, in an informed democracy, the people would recognize the threat and act to stop it by voting in representatives who are committed to curtailing climate change. In the real world, though, our democracy is not that informed. The mainstream media covers stories that are more sexy. I don't believe there were any climate change questions posed at the presidential debates. The two possible solutions would be to change the system in such a way to foster an informed democracy. The other, as you mentioned, would be an entirely different government system. I think the former solution is more feasible by passing legislation that makes it harder for fossil fuel companies to have so much influence on representatives. I'm not sure how to fix the news. The reason I don't see a different system of government working is because I don't think any system solves the "individual interest > general welfare" problem. Democracy is pretty much as good as it gets when it comes to the general welfare, other than a smart benevolent dictator... but how long has that ever lasted?
- saulrh 10y ago
  > but the "let everyone do as they will" mindset may cause problems You can change that "may" to "does". Even in the case of perfect coordination and cooperation, there are fundamental mathematical limitations on the optimization power of distributed algorithms. Introducing independent, competing agents then adds game-theoretic results into the mix and everything goes straight into the toilet. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- namlem 10y ago
  Or that modern democracies are simply too inept to deal with them. I think we could design a democratic state that is far more effective than any that exists today.
  - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
    Well, sure, we could design one - but could we design one that would survive itself? For example, consider the problem of gerrymandering. When one political party takes control over another, they may look at their gerrymandered districts and cry out "Unfair! We need to fix this!" But how do you incentivize them so that they don't just redraw the boundaries in their favor this time?
    - namlem 10y ago
      IMO, we should abolish elections entirely and select legislators by lottery out of pools of people who pass qualification exams. Random selection has a lot of benefits. There have been a number of studies on its use in promoting workers in the private sector. Sortition has a long history of use in government, from ancient Greece, to the Irish constitutional convention of 2012. Elections inherently favor those who desire power over other, demagogues, and narcissists. They also result in the creation of an insular political class, which often trends towards oligarchy.
- vidarh 10y ago
  Libertarianism is not "let everyone do as they will", but to interfere only to maximise liberty. The challenge - and e.g. the primary split between left-libertarianism / libertarian socialism and right-libertarianism - is to define what it means to maximise liberty, and which forms of liberty should be inviolable even if affects the liberty of others. "Let everyone do as they will" only works if you are prepared to step in when someone's idea of "doing as they will" involves preventing someone else from doing the same, or it won't be "let everyone do as they will" but "let a small portion of people do as they will, and everyone else be damned". As a left-libertarian, I'd certainly argue that if you pollute and as a result affect the very ability of others to survive or negatively affect their health, you are also affecting their liberty, and society is justified in sanctioning you. Elites get this wrong because few, if any, elites aim to maximise liberty. Maximising liberty does not (currently, anyway) win you elections.
roflchoppa 10y ago
i would not say that "the people" have rejected it, rather some of our representatives fail to come to terms with the science. Either by choice or by foolishness. But yes quite interesting that the uber-rich in this circumstance step up to the bat, perhaps they have vested interest, just as those who claim its a "hoax//inconclusive"
- kitsuac 10y ago
  But it isn't the role of the representatives to come to terms with science, it's their role to come to terms with the will of "The People" (the tangled mess of what that means). I think it could be argued that the will of "The People" isn't to enact strong action to fight climate change. It's more to retain jobs in old energy industries and procrastinate until something absolutely dramatic and visceral impacts their day-to-day. I'd suppose the Achille's heel of "The People" is their short-sight. You need big minds with big wallets to see and act on the long game.
  - noonespecial 10y ago
    It may actually be easier for Gates to pledge $1B to fix the earth than for a single mom to vote "Yes, make my gas $12/gallon" to do the same. It may not be "big minds" or "short sight" but the fact that the majority of the populace is expending so much thought and effort to just get by that they don't really have the extra cycles to worry about future calamities. We kind of used up all of our populaces' reserves for that sort of thing on income inequality. The people at the top are the only ones with any "propellant" left to maneuver.
    - kitsuac 10y ago
      There are big minds without power/wealth and also far sighted people without. You pretty much need both in order to do something significant which doesn't align with the overall will of the general public.
  - roflchoppa 10y ago
    oh absolutely the representatives should be held accountable for their opinions. I would like to see in the upcoming senate, how climate change is going to be taken, and how the votes are run. As far as the will of the public, i don't think that "saving the environment" will force a shift of peoples votes, i think that natural disaster / destruction will gather peoples attention enough to make a push. It's extremely difficult to look at long term, esp when you're living paycheck to mouth... I wonder if the majority of people in these old industry are within that space.
natmaster 10y ago
Dear God, you aren't suggesting that perhaps the government isn't the solution to everything and that in fact volunteerism could be viable?
didibus 10y ago
The problem is again the tendency to generalize. A small number of the "wealthy" stepping up to address climate change does not mean that the "wealthy" are stepping up. You made a similar mistake in generalizing the "people".
- kitsuac 10y ago
  The only thing which matters when considering "The People" is their aggregate "generalization" -- contrasted with these uber wealthy where a handful of them can make an actual positive impact on climate change where the people failed. Sure, plenty of people are gung ho about making a difference, but if their sum doesn't add up to actual change then that's the aggregate reality.
gns24 10y ago
If they slightly re-branded as a for-profit renewable energy fund would that go down better than apparent altruism? Tesla would be a good model.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
How could they do otherwise with the messages they are getting from extremely partisan media and representatives? The people are compelled to recycle, change their lightbulbs and so on but their representatives OK a fracking scheme or gas plant that cancels out all savings. There's no insulation, combined heat and power or even removal of fossil subsidies or sense of urgency coming from the representatives. The few "people" who are scientifically aware seem very keen to see this change, but unfortunately are still a minority.
- Pigo 10y ago
  I think that's why projects like Elon's Solar Roof have so much potential from a grass roots perspective, blending energy consumption awareness with self-concern (and coolness). If it was a daily concern for most of us, and not something to just get bummed out about a couple times a week, people would be hyped about it. Sometimes it just seems like every solution is on some global scale that barely involves us. There's a handful of graduates who will get some old MS money (and good for them). And I'll keep living exactly the same. I know there's probably lower hanging fruit around the world, but I hope for effective solutions we can put into practice that change the conversation (as Don Draper would put it).

by kitsuac 10y ago

mathattack 10y ago

Is it possible that solving the great challenges of humanity today (global poverty, climate change, nuclear non-proliferation) stretch the ability of democracies to solve? I'm an anti-elitist libertarian at heart, but the "let everyone do as they will" mindset may cause problems. (And I understand that elites get it wrong much of the time)

kitsuac 10y ago
Everyone gets it wrong much of the time, seems like the question may be more about who gets it wrong a little less often.
tammer 10y ago
Remember that a function of at least the American Constitution is to smooth processes of change over many years for the purposes of stability. Climate change is a particular challenge here: immediate action is required, but warning signs are too diffuse to work against political inertia.
jacobolus 10y ago
I think democracy would be in much better shape if there weren’t such massive campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry to a wide range of politicians.
- kitsuac 10y ago
  But that's a reflection of "The People" and their will. People want their existing jobs and status quo. They care about next week's pay check. Not a theoretical tidal wave that people they don't know say will happen if they don't stop working on fossil fuels and switch to being a cashier at Wendy's. To separate that reality of will from democracy would make it no longer democratic.
  - Maarten88 10y ago
    Campaign Contributions are imo clearly not a reflection of the will of the people. They are a reflection of business interests, protecting the status quo and working against balanced arguments on public policy. A reflection of The People would be simply their democratic vote, informed by balanced and unsubsidized arguments from both sides.
    - int_19h 10y ago
      > What if The People's democratic vote is to commit collective long term suicide for short term gains? I mean, obviously, individually, it's up to each person to choose. But when the majority chooses for everyone (including the minority), is the minority bound to respect that decision?
  - philipov 10y ago
    > 'They care about next week's pay check.' And whose fault do you think that is... There can be no talk of the will of the people when they are beholden to the coercion of the elites through structured economic insecurity.
  - coldpie 10y ago
    > But that's a reflection of "The People" and their will. I don't think so. I need to heat my house or I will die, so I pay the energy company. But, my "will" is that climate change is the most important issue today, and I would greatly like to increase subsidies for alternative energy and funds for climate science. If the energy company lobbies against that, then they are using my money to lobby against my will. It's easy to extrapolate this to the majority of the energy company's subscribers. You can't say that corporate lobbying is a reflection of the country's will.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    "A third objection is that Easter Islanders surely wouldn’t have been so foolish as to cut down all their trees, when the consequences would have been so obvious to them. As Catherine Orliac expressed it, “Why destroy a forest that one needs for his [i.e., the Easter Islanders’] material and spiritual survival?” This is indeed a key question, one that has nagged not only Catherine Orliac but also my University of California students, me, and everyone else who has wondered about self-inflicted environmental damage. I have often asked myself, “What did the Easter Islander who cut down the last palm tree say while he was doing it?” Like modern loggers, did he shout “Jobs, not trees!”? Or: “Technology will solve our problems, never fear, we’ll find a substitute for wood”? Or: “We don’t have proof that there aren’t palms somewhere else on Easter, we need more research, your proposed ban on logging is premature and driven by fear-mongering”? Similar questions arise for every society that has inadvertently damaged its environment." - Jared Diamond, "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" (A must read book, by the way.)
buzzy_hacker 10y ago
Perhaps, although I don't believe another system of government would be better suited to solve it. The problem with not addressing climate change, for example, is greater concern for personal interests over the general welfare. In this case, fossil fuel companies prioritize their profits over the planet's well-being. That prioritization is the source of fossil fuel lobbying and anti-science news that supposedly refutes climate change. Theoretically, in an informed democracy, the people would recognize the threat and act to stop it by voting in representatives who are committed to curtailing climate change. In the real world, though, our democracy is not that informed. The mainstream media covers stories that are more sexy. I don't believe there were any climate change questions posed at the presidential debates. The two possible solutions would be to change the system in such a way to foster an informed democracy. The other, as you mentioned, would be an entirely different government system. I think the former solution is more feasible by passing legislation that makes it harder for fossil fuel companies to have so much influence on representatives. I'm not sure how to fix the news. The reason I don't see a different system of government working is because I don't think any system solves the "individual interest > general welfare" problem. Democracy is pretty much as good as it gets when it comes to the general welfare, other than a smart benevolent dictator... but how long has that ever lasted?
saulrh 10y ago
> but the "let everyone do as they will" mindset may cause problems You can change that "may" to "does". Even in the case of perfect coordination and cooperation, there are fundamental mathematical limitations on the optimization power of distributed algorithms. Introducing independent, competing agents then adds game-theoretic results into the mix and everything goes straight into the toilet. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
namlem 10y ago
Or that modern democracies are simply too inept to deal with them. I think we could design a democratic state that is far more effective than any that exists today.
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago
  Well, sure, we could design one - but could we design one that would survive itself? For example, consider the problem of gerrymandering. When one political party takes control over another, they may look at their gerrymandered districts and cry out "Unfair! We need to fix this!" But how do you incentivize them so that they don't just redraw the boundaries in their favor this time?
  - namlem 10y ago
    IMO, we should abolish elections entirely and select legislators by lottery out of pools of people who pass qualification exams. Random selection has a lot of benefits. There have been a number of studies on its use in promoting workers in the private sector. Sortition has a long history of use in government, from ancient Greece, to the Irish constitutional convention of 2012. Elections inherently favor those who desire power over other, demagogues, and narcissists. They also result in the creation of an insular political class, which often trends towards oligarchy.
vidarh 10y ago
Libertarianism is not "let everyone do as they will", but to interfere only to maximise liberty. The challenge - and e.g. the primary split between left-libertarianism / libertarian socialism and right-libertarianism - is to define what it means to maximise liberty, and which forms of liberty should be inviolable even if affects the liberty of others. "Let everyone do as they will" only works if you are prepared to step in when someone's idea of "doing as they will" involves preventing someone else from doing the same, or it won't be "let everyone do as they will" but "let a small portion of people do as they will, and everyone else be damned". As a left-libertarian, I'd certainly argue that if you pollute and as a result affect the very ability of others to survive or negatively affect their health, you are also affecting their liberty, and society is justified in sanctioning you. Elites get this wrong because few, if any, elites aim to maximise liberty. Maximising liberty does not (currently, anyway) win you elections.

roflchoppa 10y ago

i would not say that "the people" have rejected it, rather some of our representatives fail to come to terms with the science. Either by choice or by foolishness. But yes quite interesting that the uber-rich in this circumstance step up to the bat, perhaps they have vested interest, just as those who claim its a "hoax//inconclusive"

kitsuac 10y ago
But it isn't the role of the representatives to come to terms with science, it's their role to come to terms with the will of "The People" (the tangled mess of what that means). I think it could be argued that the will of "The People" isn't to enact strong action to fight climate change. It's more to retain jobs in old energy industries and procrastinate until something absolutely dramatic and visceral impacts their day-to-day. I'd suppose the Achille's heel of "The People" is their short-sight. You need big minds with big wallets to see and act on the long game.
- noonespecial 10y ago
  It may actually be easier for Gates to pledge $1B to fix the earth than for a single mom to vote "Yes, make my gas $12/gallon" to do the same. It may not be "big minds" or "short sight" but the fact that the majority of the populace is expending so much thought and effort to just get by that they don't really have the extra cycles to worry about future calamities. We kind of used up all of our populaces' reserves for that sort of thing on income inequality. The people at the top are the only ones with any "propellant" left to maneuver.
  - kitsuac 10y ago
    There are big minds without power/wealth and also far sighted people without. You pretty much need both in order to do something significant which doesn't align with the overall will of the general public.
- roflchoppa 10y ago
  oh absolutely the representatives should be held accountable for their opinions. I would like to see in the upcoming senate, how climate change is going to be taken, and how the votes are run. As far as the will of the public, i don't think that "saving the environment" will force a shift of peoples votes, i think that natural disaster / destruction will gather peoples attention enough to make a push. It's extremely difficult to look at long term, esp when you're living paycheck to mouth... I wonder if the majority of people in these old industry are within that space.

natmaster 10y ago

Dear God, you aren't suggesting that perhaps the government isn't the solution to everything and that in fact volunteerism could be viable?

didibus 10y ago

The problem is again the tendency to generalize. A small number of the "wealthy" stepping up to address climate change does not mean that the "wealthy" are stepping up. You made a similar mistake in generalizing the "people".

kitsuac 10y ago
The only thing which matters when considering "The People" is their aggregate "generalization" -- contrasted with these uber wealthy where a handful of them can make an actual positive impact on climate change where the people failed. Sure, plenty of people are gung ho about making a difference, but if their sum doesn't add up to actual change then that's the aggregate reality.

gns24 10y ago

If they slightly re-branded as a for-profit renewable energy fund would that go down better than apparent altruism? Tesla would be a good model.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

How could they do otherwise with the messages they are getting from extremely partisan media and representatives? The people are compelled to recycle, change their lightbulbs and so on but their representatives OK a fracking scheme or gas plant that cancels out all savings. There's no insulation, combined heat and power or even removal of fossil subsidies or sense of urgency coming from the representatives. The few "people" who are scientifically aware seem very keen to see this change, but unfortunately are still a minority.

Pigo 10y ago
I think that's why projects like Elon's Solar Roof have so much potential from a grass roots perspective, blending energy consumption awareness with self-concern (and coolness). If it was a daily concern for most of us, and not something to just get bummed out about a couple times a week, people would be hyped about it. Sometimes it just seems like every solution is on some global scale that barely involves us. There's a handful of graduates who will get some old MS money (and good for them). And I'll keep living exactly the same. I know there's probably lower hanging fruit around the world, but I hope for effective solutions we can put into practice that change the conversation (as Don Draper would put it).