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Except this is largely based on mythology. People seem to equate "pro user" with "software developer" (and no other roles/occupations at all), and invent a fict

Except this is largely based on mythology. People seem to equate "pro user" with "software developer" (and no other roles/occupations at all), and invent a fictitious history in which the Macbook Pro was jumping up and down on stage shouting "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" Except that never happened. The perceived dev-friendliness of the Macbook Pro was a historical accident: it turns out that when you build something for use cases like audio/video engineering (which overlap a bit in their hardware needs with use cases like compiling software), and happen due to quirks of your company's history to be shipping a Unix-y operating system, developers will like it. But aside from providing tools to build applications for Apple's own platforms, the MBP and other Mac hardware wasn't deliberately catered to developers. Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP; the reviews I've read from them are positive about the touch bar and accepting of the fact that USB C is the future. It's just the developers -- and largely developers who hated Apple's products anyway and likely will never interact with the new MBP -- who say that this is proof that Apple has completely abandoned "pro" users.

rev12 10y ago
>>> "Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP" I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. My experience is in the world of composition and sound design; the attitude towards using Mac for that shifted a while back, due to the lackluster and non-existent upgrades to the Mac Pro. No one in the professional audio world that I know, or anything that I have read, has suggested they are liking the new laptop (which wouldn't get much use from them anyway).
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Well if we're sharing annecdata: literally everyone I know who works in audio would give up their Mac only on death. That covers several DJs, Producers, VO Artists, Audio Editors, and quite a few Sound Designers...
  - WWLink 10y ago
    If we're sharing annecdata: Almost every programmer I know owns a Mac and loves it, and prefers working on them. Except me. My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.
    - kagamine 10y ago
      > My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one. ? Then what are you using?
      - coldtea 10y ago
        Refuses to buy them a Mac obviously. As in "doesn't let me use my own mac and refuses to buy me a mac of his own". So, parent is using the computer the employer doesn't refuse to buy them, a PC.
        kagamine 10y ago
        Now it makes sense. I really wondered.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Here in my little corner in Europe, I hardly know anyone, other than management and colleagues doing iOS/Appstore projects, having one. At my company they belong to a pool for iOS projects.
  - DasIch 10y ago
    What would be the alternative anyway? Imagine a DJ playing a set and suddenly having Windows force an update on them. Linux during some periods barely played audio for regular use cases. If you want good hardware and a reliable operating system, you go with a Mac. A few annoyances with adapters it might require won't change that at all.
    - kriro 10y ago
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. Depends on what you mean "professional audio world". If you mean heavy old style studios, the kind Led Zeppelin might have recorded on back in the day, yes, but these are on the go (profits and usage wise) anyway, as the industry shifts. Musicians, producers, DJs, etc most carry laptops and have home studios based around them, and most use MacBook Pro's for their stuff (as evident in all kinds of interviews and live scenarios).
  - fornever 10y ago
    That's more a case of the MacBook Pro being "good enough" and Apple, and PC manufacturers too for that matter, have successfully segmented the market (with things like ports). Even Macworld will tell you these days that "whether you choose a Mac or PC for music production is largely down to the platform you prefer and who you’re collaborating with. There’s little inherent advantage to using Macs, beyond familiarity with the system, and the general robustness of the hardware" [1]. [1] http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/best-mac-making-music-apple-computer-for-editing-music-new-3446650/ http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/best-mac-maki...
  - rev12 10y ago
    I was referring to the composition and post production (sound design, engineering) world. Mostly because that is the industry I worked in for many years and still continue to work in (much more sporadically these days). That's a world that was dominated by Mac Pros around 2010. Around 2013 I started seeing a shift, myself included, to custom built PC workstations and that trend is just increasing now. The initial switch, I believe, started with the lackluster cylinder Mac Pro, but continued due to the obvious failings in the Mac desktop market. You speak of home based studios using MacBook pros, but anyone doing that is obviously not a professional. I will give you the fact that many DJs are using MacBooks for the mobile rigs, but at home, anyone actually doing professional audio work is likely using a massive powerful workstation or a number of PCs (master/slaves). This notion that MacBooks (or even laptops in general) are super popular in the professional audio world is fiction made for advertising.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  I recall senior players (ie work at Air 1, Abby Road etc) in the audio world saying this 5 years ago in sound on sound
Laforet 10y ago
The absence of SD card slot and general lack of periphery ports is universally lamented by AV professionals. There are also reports of poor battery life although I suspect it is a side effect of a brighter backlight.
matt4077 10y ago
I got the strong impression that those self-proclaimed "professionals" are more or less exactly the opposite: people who spend an inordinate amount of time plugging in dozens of different peripherals with random port requirements, fiddling around with the hardware, and running benchmarks. For what it's worth, a Mac today is still as useful (at least for web development) as it has always been. Much more so actually because homebrew has evolved to be completely stable. And while CPU speeds have been stagnating (mostly because they've reached "good enough" and then some), people are ignoring two major shifts in hardware that have significantly improved the dev experience: Retina screens and SSDs.
WWLink 10y ago
Honestly I'm fed up of how video editors act like they're the whole damn "pro" market and nothing else matters.
wyclif 10y ago
That was then. But now that Apple does know that the MBP is perceived as dev-friendly, based on the type of people in that market segment that buy them, why would they let that slice of the market go?
- coldtea 10y ago
  Who said that slice of the market will go? Complainers are always amplified on the internet. Check back in 2 years.
  - wyclif 10y ago
    The perception, as displayed in this thread, is that they are. Plus the overwhelming negativity from developers regarding the new MBP, as seen in numerous HN threads and other tech news stories. I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, and they will make a move that will please the software developer market.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, The people lamenting the missing option for 32GB RAM as devastating for pros, never had it in the first place, as the previous generation didn't support 32GB either (and yet, they still worked just fine). Second, the limitation to 16GB is from Intel, not Apple. Intel didn't have 32GB compatible modules with low energy consumption ready -- and without those, Apple using the energy sucking 32GB option would reduce battery life 20% or more. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of PC laptops developers buy don't have 32GB at this point in time either, including the most famous models (XPS etc).
      - gommm 10y ago
        Well people who are lamenting the lack of the 32GB ram bought a 16GB ram a while ago and are looking to upgrade. Apple could have kept the previous form factor and not made the battery 20% smaller which would have allowed them to have an energy sucking 32GB option. Plus the new form factor is useless anyway, since we end up having to carry adapters which take as much space and weight as what was saved. Anyway, I've developed a wait and see approach and reserve judgement next year when the next iteration of machines come out. Maybe I'm lucky and Apple even decides to bring back the 17 inch macbook pro
rhinoceraptor 10y ago
So then the pro applications are supposed to come from? And beyond that, where are their iOS applications supposed to come from?
l1k 10y ago
No that is not mythology, Apple specifically targeted developers in the past, such as in this 2002 commercial featuring a stereotypical grey-bearded UNIX guru: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs Quote: "It's not just for artists. It's not just for pointy-headed intellectuals from California. It's for us, it's for programmers, it's for developers."

rev12 10y ago

>>> "Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP" I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. My experience is in the world of composition and sound design; the attitude towards using Mac for that shifted a while back, due to the lackluster and non-existent upgrades to the Mac Pro. No one in the professional audio world that I know, or anything that I have read, has suggested they are liking the new laptop (which wouldn't get much use from them anyway).

abritinthebay 10y ago
Well if we're sharing annecdata: literally everyone I know who works in audio would give up their Mac only on death. That covers several DJs, Producers, VO Artists, Audio Editors, and quite a few Sound Designers...
- WWLink 10y ago
  If we're sharing annecdata: Almost every programmer I know owns a Mac and loves it, and prefers working on them. Except me. My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.
  - kagamine 10y ago
    > My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one. ? Then what are you using?
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Refuses to buy them a Mac obviously. As in "doesn't let me use my own mac and refuses to buy me a mac of his own". So, parent is using the computer the employer doesn't refuse to buy them, a PC.
      - kagamine 10y ago
        Now it makes sense. I really wondered.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Here in my little corner in Europe, I hardly know anyone, other than management and colleagues doing iOS/Appstore projects, having one. At my company they belong to a pool for iOS projects.
- DasIch 10y ago
  What would be the alternative anyway? Imagine a DJ playing a set and suddenly having Windows force an update on them. Linux during some periods barely played audio for regular use cases. If you want good hardware and a reliable operating system, you go with a Mac. A few annoyances with adapters it might require won't change that at all.
  - kriro 10y ago
coldtea 10y ago
>I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. Depends on what you mean "professional audio world". If you mean heavy old style studios, the kind Led Zeppelin might have recorded on back in the day, yes, but these are on the go (profits and usage wise) anyway, as the industry shifts. Musicians, producers, DJs, etc most carry laptops and have home studios based around them, and most use MacBook Pro's for their stuff (as evident in all kinds of interviews and live scenarios).
- fornever 10y ago
  That's more a case of the MacBook Pro being "good enough" and Apple, and PC manufacturers too for that matter, have successfully segmented the market (with things like ports). Even Macworld will tell you these days that "whether you choose a Mac or PC for music production is largely down to the platform you prefer and who you’re collaborating with. There’s little inherent advantage to using Macs, beyond familiarity with the system, and the general robustness of the hardware" [1]. [1] http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/best-mac-making-music-apple-computer-for-editing-music-new-3446650/ http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/best-mac-maki...
- rev12 10y ago
  I was referring to the composition and post production (sound design, engineering) world. Mostly because that is the industry I worked in for many years and still continue to work in (much more sporadically these days). That's a world that was dominated by Mac Pros around 2010. Around 2013 I started seeing a shift, myself included, to custom built PC workstations and that trend is just increasing now. The initial switch, I believe, started with the lackluster cylinder Mac Pro, but continued due to the obvious failings in the Mac desktop market. You speak of home based studios using MacBook pros, but anyone doing that is obviously not a professional. I will give you the fact that many DJs are using MacBooks for the mobile rigs, but at home, anyone actually doing professional audio work is likely using a massive powerful workstation or a number of PCs (master/slaves). This notion that MacBooks (or even laptops in general) are super popular in the professional audio world is fiction made for advertising.
lostboys67 10y ago
I recall senior players (ie work at Air 1, Abby Road etc) in the audio world saying this 5 years ago in sound on sound

Laforet 10y ago

The absence of SD card slot and general lack of periphery ports is universally lamented by AV professionals. There are also reports of poor battery life although I suspect it is a side effect of a brighter backlight.

matt4077 10y ago

I got the strong impression that those self-proclaimed "professionals" are more or less exactly the opposite: people who spend an inordinate amount of time plugging in dozens of different peripherals with random port requirements, fiddling around with the hardware, and running benchmarks. For what it's worth, a Mac today is still as useful (at least for web development) as it has always been. Much more so actually because homebrew has evolved to be completely stable. And while CPU speeds have been stagnating (mostly because they've reached "good enough" and then some), people are ignoring two major shifts in hardware that have significantly improved the dev experience: Retina screens and SSDs.

WWLink 10y ago

Honestly I'm fed up of how video editors act like they're the whole damn "pro" market and nothing else matters.

wyclif 10y ago

That was then. But now that Apple does know that the MBP is perceived as dev-friendly, based on the type of people in that market segment that buy them, why would they let that slice of the market go?

coldtea 10y ago
Who said that slice of the market will go? Complainers are always amplified on the internet. Check back in 2 years.
- wyclif 10y ago
  The perception, as displayed in this thread, is that they are. Plus the overwhelming negativity from developers regarding the new MBP, as seen in numerous HN threads and other tech news stories. I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, and they will make a move that will please the software developer market.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, The people lamenting the missing option for 32GB RAM as devastating for pros, never had it in the first place, as the previous generation didn't support 32GB either (and yet, they still worked just fine). Second, the limitation to 16GB is from Intel, not Apple. Intel didn't have 32GB compatible modules with low energy consumption ready -- and without those, Apple using the energy sucking 32GB option would reduce battery life 20% or more. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of PC laptops developers buy don't have 32GB at this point in time either, including the most famous models (XPS etc).
    - gommm 10y ago
      Well people who are lamenting the lack of the 32GB ram bought a 16GB ram a while ago and are looking to upgrade. Apple could have kept the previous form factor and not made the battery 20% smaller which would have allowed them to have an energy sucking 32GB option. Plus the new form factor is useless anyway, since we end up having to carry adapters which take as much space and weight as what was saved. Anyway, I've developed a wait and see approach and reserve judgement next year when the next iteration of machines come out. Maybe I'm lucky and Apple even decides to bring back the 17 inch macbook pro

rhinoceraptor 10y ago

So then the pro applications are supposed to come from? And beyond that, where are their iOS applications supposed to come from?

l1k 10y ago

No that is not mythology, Apple specifically targeted developers in the past, such as in this 2002 commercial featuring a stereotypical grey-bearded UNIX guru: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs Quote: "It's not just for artists. It's not just for pointy-headed intellectuals from California. It's for us, it's for programmers, it's for developers."