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>>> "the realization that Apple no longer caters equally to casual and professional customers as it had in the past [YouTube video]. Instead, the company appear

>>> "the realization that Apple no longer caters equally to casual and professional customers as it had in the past [YouTube video]. Instead, the company appears to be following an iOS-focused, margin-driven strategy that essentially relegates professionals to a fringe group." Ouch

ubernostrum 10y ago
Except this is largely based on mythology. People seem to equate "pro user" with "software developer" (and no other roles/occupations at all), and invent a fictitious history in which the Macbook Pro was jumping up and down on stage shouting "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" Except that never happened. The perceived dev-friendliness of the Macbook Pro was a historical accident: it turns out that when you build something for use cases like audio/video engineering (which overlap a bit in their hardware needs with use cases like compiling software), and happen due to quirks of your company's history to be shipping a Unix-y operating system, developers will like it. But aside from providing tools to build applications for Apple's own platforms, the MBP and other Mac hardware wasn't deliberately catered to developers. Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP; the reviews I've read from them are positive about the touch bar and accepting of the fact that USB C is the future. It's just the developers -- and largely developers who hated Apple's products anyway and likely will never interact with the new MBP -- who say that this is proof that Apple has completely abandoned "pro" users.
- rev12 10y ago
  >>> "Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP" I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. My experience is in the world of composition and sound design; the attitude towards using Mac for that shifted a while back, due to the lackluster and non-existent upgrades to the Mac Pro. No one in the professional audio world that I know, or anything that I have read, has suggested they are liking the new laptop (which wouldn't get much use from them anyway).
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    Well if we're sharing annecdata: literally everyone I know who works in audio would give up their Mac only on death. That covers several DJs, Producers, VO Artists, Audio Editors, and quite a few Sound Designers...
    - WWLink 10y ago
      If we're sharing annecdata: Almost every programmer I know owns a Mac and loves it, and prefers working on them. Except me. My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.
      - kagamine 10y ago
        > My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one. ? Then what are you using?
        coldtea 10y ago
        Refuses to buy them a Mac obviously. As in "doesn't let me use my own mac and refuses to buy me a mac of his own". So, parent is using the computer the employer doesn't refuse to buy them, a PC.
        kagamine 10y ago
        Now it makes sense. I really wondered.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Here in my little corner in Europe, I hardly know anyone, other than management and colleagues doing iOS/Appstore projects, having one. At my company they belong to a pool for iOS projects.
    - DasIch 10y ago
      What would be the alternative anyway? Imagine a DJ playing a set and suddenly having Windows force an update on them. Linux during some periods barely played audio for regular use cases. If you want good hardware and a reliable operating system, you go with a Mac. A few annoyances with adapters it might require won't change that at all.
- Laforet 10y ago
  The absence of SD card slot and general lack of periphery ports is universally lamented by AV professionals. There are also reports of poor battery life although I suspect it is a side effect of a brighter backlight.
- matt4077 10y ago
  I got the strong impression that those self-proclaimed "professionals" are more or less exactly the opposite: people who spend an inordinate amount of time plugging in dozens of different peripherals with random port requirements, fiddling around with the hardware, and running benchmarks. For what it's worth, a Mac today is still as useful (at least for web development) as it has always been. Much more so actually because homebrew has evolved to be completely stable. And while CPU speeds have been stagnating (mostly because they've reached "good enough" and then some), people are ignoring two major shifts in hardware that have significantly improved the dev experience: Retina screens and SSDs.
- WWLink 10y ago
  Honestly I'm fed up of how video editors act like they're the whole damn "pro" market and nothing else matters.
- wyclif 10y ago
  That was then. But now that Apple does know that the MBP is perceived as dev-friendly, based on the type of people in that market segment that buy them, why would they let that slice of the market go?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Who said that slice of the market will go? Complainers are always amplified on the internet. Check back in 2 years.
    - wyclif 10y ago
      The perception, as displayed in this thread, is that they are. Plus the overwhelming negativity from developers regarding the new MBP, as seen in numerous HN threads and other tech news stories. I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, and they will make a move that will please the software developer market.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, The people lamenting the missing option for 32GB RAM as devastating for pros, never had it in the first place, as the previous generation didn't support 32GB either (and yet, they still worked just fine). Second, the limitation to 16GB is from Intel, not Apple. Intel didn't have 32GB compatible modules with low energy consumption ready -- and without those, Apple using the energy sucking 32GB option would reduce battery life 20% or more. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of PC laptops developers buy don't have 32GB at this point in time either, including the most famous models (XPS etc).
        gommm 10y ago
        Well people who are lamenting the lack of the 32GB ram bought a 16GB ram a while ago and are looking to upgrade. Apple could have kept the previous form factor and not made the battery 20% smaller which would have allowed them to have an energy sucking 32GB option. Plus the new form factor is useless anyway, since we end up having to carry adapters which take as much space and weight as what was saved. Anyway, I've developed a wait and see approach and reserve judgement next year when the next iteration of machines come out. Maybe I'm lucky and Apple even decides to bring back the 17 inch macbook pro
- rhinoceraptor 10y ago
  So then the pro applications are supposed to come from? And beyond that, where are their iOS applications supposed to come from?
- l1k 10y ago
  No that is not mythology, Apple specifically targeted developers in the past, such as in this 2002 commercial featuring a stereotypical grey-bearded UNIX guru: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs Quote: "It's not just for artists. It's not just for pointy-headed intellectuals from California. It's for us, it's for programmers, it's for developers."
matt4077 10y ago
Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep – choose any two".
- prodigal_erik 10y ago
  The article talked about how Linux supports several models, not just the latest one. If I owned an older Macbook but now regarded the product line to be doomed, I'd want to know how painful it would be to start migrating to a different platform on my current hardware.
- WWLink 10y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.
  - DasIch 10y ago
    Or it could be that Apple just really doesn't care and most Apple customers don't either.
  - dispose13432 10y ago
    >I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on. I don't understand why would anyone not open-source their drivers? What's NVIDIA's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Intel's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Samsung's secret sauce? Being able to put together great silicon. So let's say tomorrow Nvidia open-sources all their drivers? So now you know that which registers do you use to shade what. So now what's AMD going to do? Copy the interface? It's already copied. Most users use standard OpenGL/DirectX to communicate with their board. I mean look at Intel. You practically know what's what there. You can make an OS on (at least older) Intel chips without drivers. Did it help anyone compete?
hashkb 10y ago
If you just realized this year that they are entertainment focused and devs/pros are a secondary concern, you haven't been paying attention. Since 10.6 when dual full screen was removed I say the shark has been jumped.
manyxcxi 10y ago
What I don't get from the article, if I'm pissed about the hardware change why am I trying to run Linux on it/my old one? A) You keep your old laptop and continue to run macOS for as long as possible B) You're shopping for a new laptop and don't buy Apple, then run Linux If you keep your old hardware why run Linux on it? I've been looking at who else is out there are making decent laptops that run Linux well (open to suggestions, especially if they have more than 16GB RAM), as I have a feeling my 2015 Retina will be my last MBP. The hard part for me is that I've gotten used to a certain look and feel with the MBP. That nice solid, rigid body, and the display hinge that just stays. When I pick up a ThinkPad and it creaks and flexes when I open the display or casually pick it up by the corner it makes my skin crawl.
- joshlemer 10y ago
  Have you taken a look at the Razer Blade? It is basically equivalent to the Macbook pro's hardware in every way, except black, an i7, a touchscreen, and an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060, and a bit less expensive. I just got one. I haven't put Linux on it yet, but I'm pretty blown away with the hardware.
  - artursapek 10y ago
    Wow, that looks like an MBPro clone. I've never heard of this company. I wonder if its machines work well with Linux?
    - tkxxx7 10y ago
      There was an article last week stating they don't support Linux out of the box (or at least not Ubuntu), but I don't remember details regarding how much work is required to get it running.
      - deadbunny 10y ago
        The Arch wiki has a whole load of details on getting one up and running[1]. These instruction will usually translate between any other (up to date) distro with a bit of translation. 1. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/razer#2016_version_.28Razer_Blade_.26_Razer_Blade_Stealth.29 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/razer#2016_version_.28R...

ubernostrum 10y ago

Except this is largely based on mythology. People seem to equate "pro user" with "software developer" (and no other roles/occupations at all), and invent a fictitious history in which the Macbook Pro was jumping up and down on stage shouting "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" Except that never happened. The perceived dev-friendliness of the Macbook Pro was a historical accident: it turns out that when you build something for use cases like audio/video engineering (which overlap a bit in their hardware needs with use cases like compiling software), and happen due to quirks of your company's history to be shipping a Unix-y operating system, developers will like it. But aside from providing tools to build applications for Apple's own platforms, the MBP and other Mac hardware wasn't deliberately catered to developers. Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP; the reviews I've read from them are positive about the touch bar and accepting of the fact that USB C is the future. It's just the developers -- and largely developers who hated Apple's products anyway and likely will never interact with the new MBP -- who say that this is proof that Apple has completely abandoned "pro" users.

rev12 10y ago
>>> "Meanwhile, the audio/video-engineer types still seem to like the MBP" I can't speak to the professional video world, but that's absolutely false in the professional audio world. My experience is in the world of composition and sound design; the attitude towards using Mac for that shifted a while back, due to the lackluster and non-existent upgrades to the Mac Pro. No one in the professional audio world that I know, or anything that I have read, has suggested they are liking the new laptop (which wouldn't get much use from them anyway).
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Well if we're sharing annecdata: literally everyone I know who works in audio would give up their Mac only on death. That covers several DJs, Producers, VO Artists, Audio Editors, and quite a few Sound Designers...
  - WWLink 10y ago
    If we're sharing annecdata: Almost every programmer I know owns a Mac and loves it, and prefers working on them. Except me. My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one.
    - kagamine 10y ago
      > My employer doesn't let me use my own computer and refuses to buy me one. ? Then what are you using?
      - coldtea 10y ago
        Refuses to buy them a Mac obviously. As in "doesn't let me use my own mac and refuses to buy me a mac of his own". So, parent is using the computer the employer doesn't refuse to buy them, a PC.
        kagamine 10y ago
        Now it makes sense. I really wondered.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Here in my little corner in Europe, I hardly know anyone, other than management and colleagues doing iOS/Appstore projects, having one. At my company they belong to a pool for iOS projects.
  - DasIch 10y ago
    What would be the alternative anyway? Imagine a DJ playing a set and suddenly having Windows force an update on them. Linux during some periods barely played audio for regular use cases. If you want good hardware and a reliable operating system, you go with a Mac. A few annoyances with adapters it might require won't change that at all.
Laforet 10y ago
The absence of SD card slot and general lack of periphery ports is universally lamented by AV professionals. There are also reports of poor battery life although I suspect it is a side effect of a brighter backlight.
matt4077 10y ago
I got the strong impression that those self-proclaimed "professionals" are more or less exactly the opposite: people who spend an inordinate amount of time plugging in dozens of different peripherals with random port requirements, fiddling around with the hardware, and running benchmarks. For what it's worth, a Mac today is still as useful (at least for web development) as it has always been. Much more so actually because homebrew has evolved to be completely stable. And while CPU speeds have been stagnating (mostly because they've reached "good enough" and then some), people are ignoring two major shifts in hardware that have significantly improved the dev experience: Retina screens and SSDs.
WWLink 10y ago
Honestly I'm fed up of how video editors act like they're the whole damn "pro" market and nothing else matters.
wyclif 10y ago
That was then. But now that Apple does know that the MBP is perceived as dev-friendly, based on the type of people in that market segment that buy them, why would they let that slice of the market go?
- coldtea 10y ago
  Who said that slice of the market will go? Complainers are always amplified on the internet. Check back in 2 years.
  - wyclif 10y ago
    The perception, as displayed in this thread, is that they are. Plus the overwhelming negativity from developers regarding the new MBP, as seen in numerous HN threads and other tech news stories. I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, and they will make a move that will please the software developer market.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >I don't really have any stock in whether the perception is a reality or not, so I'm willing to be persuaded. Hopefully in the next iteration the MBP will have at least 32GB RAM, The people lamenting the missing option for 32GB RAM as devastating for pros, never had it in the first place, as the previous generation didn't support 32GB either (and yet, they still worked just fine). Second, the limitation to 16GB is from Intel, not Apple. Intel didn't have 32GB compatible modules with low energy consumption ready -- and without those, Apple using the energy sucking 32GB option would reduce battery life 20% or more. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of PC laptops developers buy don't have 32GB at this point in time either, including the most famous models (XPS etc).
      - gommm 10y ago
        Well people who are lamenting the lack of the 32GB ram bought a 16GB ram a while ago and are looking to upgrade. Apple could have kept the previous form factor and not made the battery 20% smaller which would have allowed them to have an energy sucking 32GB option. Plus the new form factor is useless anyway, since we end up having to carry adapters which take as much space and weight as what was saved. Anyway, I've developed a wait and see approach and reserve judgement next year when the next iteration of machines come out. Maybe I'm lucky and Apple even decides to bring back the 17 inch macbook pro
rhinoceraptor 10y ago
So then the pro applications are supposed to come from? And beyond that, where are their iOS applications supposed to come from?
l1k 10y ago
No that is not mythology, Apple specifically targeted developers in the past, such as in this 2002 commercial featuring a stereotypical grey-bearded UNIX guru: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4AgFhIm1qs Quote: "It's not just for artists. It's not just for pointy-headed intellectuals from California. It's for us, it's for programmers, it's for developers."

matt4077 10y ago

Apart from being wrong, that narrative doesn't even make sense as an intro to this article: the criticism was directed at the new MBP hardware – so why would these super-professional uber-users buy it and then replace the OS? (Not to mention that, if I understood it correctly, Linux currently doesn't even support the keyboard, and is otherwise probably in its usual desktop mode of "WLAN, Sound, or functioning sleep – choose any two".

prodigal_erik 10y ago
The article talked about how Linux supports several models, not just the latest one. If I owned an older Macbook but now regarded the product line to be doomed, I'd want to know how painful it would be to start migrating to a different platform on my current hardware.
WWLink 10y ago
I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on.
- DasIch 10y ago
  Or it could be that Apple just really doesn't care and most Apple customers don't either.
- dispose13432 10y ago
  >I wouldn't necessarily blame the "WLAN, sound, or sleep" thing on linux. I'd blame that on cheap parts manufacturers that refuse to distribute open source drivers for fear of releasing company secrets and lack of profit margins to operate on. I don't understand why would anyone not open-source their drivers? What's NVIDIA's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Intel's secret sauce? Being able to build great silicon. What's Samsung's secret sauce? Being able to put together great silicon. So let's say tomorrow Nvidia open-sources all their drivers? So now you know that which registers do you use to shade what. So now what's AMD going to do? Copy the interface? It's already copied. Most users use standard OpenGL/DirectX to communicate with their board. I mean look at Intel. You practically know what's what there. You can make an OS on (at least older) Intel chips without drivers. Did it help anyone compete?

hashkb 10y ago

If you just realized this year that they are entertainment focused and devs/pros are a secondary concern, you haven't been paying attention. Since 10.6 when dual full screen was removed I say the shark has been jumped.

manyxcxi 10y ago

What I don't get from the article, if I'm pissed about the hardware change why am I trying to run Linux on it/my old one? A) You keep your old laptop and continue to run macOS for as long as possible B) You're shopping for a new laptop and don't buy Apple, then run Linux If you keep your old hardware why run Linux on it? I've been looking at who else is out there are making decent laptops that run Linux well (open to suggestions, especially if they have more than 16GB RAM), as I have a feeling my 2015 Retina will be my last MBP. The hard part for me is that I've gotten used to a certain look and feel with the MBP. That nice solid, rigid body, and the display hinge that just stays. When I pick up a ThinkPad and it creaks and flexes when I open the display or casually pick it up by the corner it makes my skin crawl.

joshlemer 10y ago
Have you taken a look at the Razer Blade? It is basically equivalent to the Macbook pro's hardware in every way, except black, an i7, a touchscreen, and an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060, and a bit less expensive. I just got one. I haven't put Linux on it yet, but I'm pretty blown away with the hardware.
- artursapek 10y ago
  Wow, that looks like an MBPro clone. I've never heard of this company. I wonder if its machines work well with Linux?
  - tkxxx7 10y ago
    There was an article last week stating they don't support Linux out of the box (or at least not Ubuntu), but I don't remember details regarding how much work is required to get it running.
    - deadbunny 10y ago
      The Arch wiki has a whole load of details on getting one up and running[1]. These instruction will usually translate between any other (up to date) distro with a bit of translation. 1. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/razer#2016_version_.28Razer_Blade_.26_Razer_Blade_Stealth.29 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/razer#2016_version_.28R...