4 ms·

Whomever dreamt up the idea of Indentured Servitude as a idea and sold it to ship owners was quite an amoral businessman. Definitely parallels to the passage o

by xfour 10y ago

Whomever dreamt up the idea of Indentured Servitude as a idea and sold it to ship owners was quite an amoral businessman. Definitely parallels to the passage of migrants to Europe from Africa, but imagine after that ordeal they'd have to be slaves more or less for 5-10 years or so.

jayajay 10y ago
Have you ever been to prison? That's where the US Government throws people who they deem to be "bad people" for about 5-10 years, sometimes forced to do menial work. That ruins lives just like what you read in the passage. One key difference is that now, ruining lives has been institutionalized, so people are somehow OK with it. It is what it is, though, at the end of the day.
- andrepd 10y ago
  Don't the people got shot/raped/beaten/robbed by those people had their lives ruined too?
  - laser 10y ago
    About half the people in prison are for non-violent drug offenses: https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...
  - jayajay 10y ago
    Don't the other people on the ship get to avoid disease, hunger, and burdens? I'm afraid it can justified either way. Doesn't change what it is -- locking people up in servitude or cages for extended periods of time.
    - andrepd 10y ago
      We can't let them go free to keep committing crimes and harm other people. So if you criticise the model, you must provide a better one.
      - jayajay 10y ago
        I'm just stating a fact about people locked up in isolated rooms against their will and how that's institutionalized. Is it OK? Idk. Is it true? Yes, it is physically true. We shouldn't avoid stating facts which make people uncomfortable. We should not avoid stating facts without any emotional connotations, otherwise, people would tend to think about things which made them comfortable -- and they have a confirmation bias. For example, if you were to say that the average Indian penis length was 4.7 inches, maybe that would make me uncomfortable, because I am Indian myself (which I actually am). Maybe it wouldn't make me uncomfortable because that doesn't say anything about me specifically (which it actually doesn't). So, yeah how can we make you uncomfortable? A murderer (killed two people and shot up a school, did 20+ years in prison) once threatened me while I was smoking pot with him. We ended being cool with each other anyways. Turns out, he was an incredibly fucking smart guy -- and he probably didn't need to be in prison for 20+ years. Of course, I'm not trying to say that all people in prison are like that. Of course, not. But, it is what it is, nonetheless.
cbdfghh 10y ago
Well, what do we have nowadays? Want a house? Be a slave to Microsoft for forty years! Want to eat? Be a slave to Google! The poor were more than welcome to stay in England or Germany, it's not like they were kidnapped or anything. And as far as conditions go, sure, nowadays such trips would be illegal, but how much worse was it than a payed for trip? Don't forget than if someone died on the trip, the captain lost money.
- vacri 10y ago
  This tech industry bubble and its self-centeredness really gets up my nose sometimes. Yeah, working for google is totally like actually shoving a woman in childbirth out a porthole or watching all the kids under the age of 7 die. Or selling your (remaining) kids into servitude and maybe never see them again. I bet that that nugget of info was on all the pamphlets back in the home countries!
  - dashundchen 10y ago
    Just because injustices in he current system aren't as physically horrible as those in years past, does not mean we shouldn't look back for comparisons and solutions. The power of labor in the United States has been continually eroded for the past several decades, for the unbounded gain of corporations and management. https://rewire.news/article/2016/03/11/anti-union-right-work-laws-passed-majority-states/ https://rewire.news/article/2016/03/11/anti-union-right-work... The right to organize has been near lobbied out of existence in many states, and any new attempts are easily busted. At the same time, increased automation, ever narrowing specialization and oversupply of an educated workforce has given employers even more leverage over the labor.
    - vacri 10y ago
      The OP was comparing working at google, one of the most sought-after jobs in the world, and which you can leave, to a coffin ship experience where the lice were so thick that you could simple scrape them off in bulk. It's not just 'physically horrible'. How many people at google or microsoft have to sell their children to survive? The OP is just so patently ridiculous that the comment isn't even worth taking seriously - but unfortunately, there's Poe's Law...
ChuckMcM 10y ago
No doubt their descendants dreamed up H-1B visas. :( But more seriously it is as true today as it was then that you can be successful in business if you set aside your morals or your integrity. We see examples of that in large companies like Wells Fargo, startups like Zenefits, and everywhere in between. The part of that which hurts is when people who have chosen that path are held up as "success stories" for others to admire and emulate. There will always be people with limited options, and others inventing ways to exploit those limits for personal gain.
codeonfire 10y ago
I don't think they dreamt up the idea with an amoral viewpoint. This was probably seen as a new moral high point in civil society. Before this people were simply slaves. Now they could work for their freedom.
bane 10y ago
If Musk is able to help bootstrap passage to Mars, I can fully see a non-trivial percent of colonists willing to take on 5 years of indenture and hard, dangerous, labor in exchange for passage. I can even see the rich "sponsors" staying here on Earth until Mars is suitably developed for comfortable living.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  You think there is a ready supply of people so detached from reality? Come to Mars, work for free for 5 years, enjoy the bleak circumstances in the years that follow.
  - LSCanaan 10y ago
    There are people already willing to go on a one-way ticket. I don't think it's too hard to believe.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      They are provisionally willing, I'll put more weight on that declaration once they are on their way. I also speculate that there are a number of people willing to go for historic prestige (or something like that), while most potential indentured tickets would have to see some pretty terrific economic prospects at the other end of the contract (it's warm on Earth and the air is free).
  - bane 10y ago
    "Come to Mars!" "Build a Better Tomorrow!" "Start Over in a New Life![1] "Free Transit, Food, Clothes and Shelter![2]" "Only a 5 year contract!" [1] new identities and Martian Citizenships issued after a simple medical checkup [2] air and water are not included in this great deal

by xfour 10y ago

jayajay 10y ago

Have you ever been to prison? That's where the US Government throws people who they deem to be "bad people" for about 5-10 years, sometimes forced to do menial work. That ruins lives just like what you read in the passage. One key difference is that now, ruining lives has been institutionalized, so people are somehow OK with it. It is what it is, though, at the end of the day.

andrepd 10y ago
Don't the people got shot/raped/beaten/robbed by those people had their lives ruined too?
- laser 10y ago
  About half the people in prison are for non-violent drug offenses: https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...
- jayajay 10y ago
  Don't the other people on the ship get to avoid disease, hunger, and burdens? I'm afraid it can justified either way. Doesn't change what it is -- locking people up in servitude or cages for extended periods of time.
  - andrepd 10y ago
    We can't let them go free to keep committing crimes and harm other people. So if you criticise the model, you must provide a better one.
    - jayajay 10y ago
      I'm just stating a fact about people locked up in isolated rooms against their will and how that's institutionalized. Is it OK? Idk. Is it true? Yes, it is physically true. We shouldn't avoid stating facts which make people uncomfortable. We should not avoid stating facts without any emotional connotations, otherwise, people would tend to think about things which made them comfortable -- and they have a confirmation bias. For example, if you were to say that the average Indian penis length was 4.7 inches, maybe that would make me uncomfortable, because I am Indian myself (which I actually am). Maybe it wouldn't make me uncomfortable because that doesn't say anything about me specifically (which it actually doesn't). So, yeah how can we make you uncomfortable? A murderer (killed two people and shot up a school, did 20+ years in prison) once threatened me while I was smoking pot with him. We ended being cool with each other anyways. Turns out, he was an incredibly fucking smart guy -- and he probably didn't need to be in prison for 20+ years. Of course, I'm not trying to say that all people in prison are like that. Of course, not. But, it is what it is, nonetheless.

cbdfghh 10y ago

Well, what do we have nowadays? Want a house? Be a slave to Microsoft for forty years! Want to eat? Be a slave to Google! The poor were more than welcome to stay in England or Germany, it's not like they were kidnapped or anything. And as far as conditions go, sure, nowadays such trips would be illegal, but how much worse was it than a payed for trip? Don't forget than if someone died on the trip, the captain lost money.

vacri 10y ago
This tech industry bubble and its self-centeredness really gets up my nose sometimes. Yeah, working for google is totally like actually shoving a woman in childbirth out a porthole or watching all the kids under the age of 7 die. Or selling your (remaining) kids into servitude and maybe never see them again. I bet that that nugget of info was on all the pamphlets back in the home countries!
- dashundchen 10y ago
  Just because injustices in he current system aren't as physically horrible as those in years past, does not mean we shouldn't look back for comparisons and solutions. The power of labor in the United States has been continually eroded for the past several decades, for the unbounded gain of corporations and management. https://rewire.news/article/2016/03/11/anti-union-right-work-laws-passed-majority-states/ https://rewire.news/article/2016/03/11/anti-union-right-work... The right to organize has been near lobbied out of existence in many states, and any new attempts are easily busted. At the same time, increased automation, ever narrowing specialization and oversupply of an educated workforce has given employers even more leverage over the labor.
  - vacri 10y ago
    The OP was comparing working at google, one of the most sought-after jobs in the world, and which you can leave, to a coffin ship experience where the lice were so thick that you could simple scrape them off in bulk. It's not just 'physically horrible'. How many people at google or microsoft have to sell their children to survive? The OP is just so patently ridiculous that the comment isn't even worth taking seriously - but unfortunately, there's Poe's Law...

ChuckMcM 10y ago

No doubt their descendants dreamed up H-1B visas. :( But more seriously it is as true today as it was then that you can be successful in business if you set aside your morals or your integrity. We see examples of that in large companies like Wells Fargo, startups like Zenefits, and everywhere in between. The part of that which hurts is when people who have chosen that path are held up as "success stories" for others to admire and emulate. There will always be people with limited options, and others inventing ways to exploit those limits for personal gain.

codeonfire 10y ago

I don't think they dreamt up the idea with an amoral viewpoint. This was probably seen as a new moral high point in civil society. Before this people were simply slaves. Now they could work for their freedom.

bane 10y ago

If Musk is able to help bootstrap passage to Mars, I can fully see a non-trivial percent of colonists willing to take on 5 years of indenture and hard, dangerous, labor in exchange for passage. I can even see the rich "sponsors" staying here on Earth until Mars is suitably developed for comfortable living.

maxerickson 10y ago
You think there is a ready supply of people so detached from reality? Come to Mars, work for free for 5 years, enjoy the bleak circumstances in the years that follow.
- LSCanaan 10y ago
  There are people already willing to go on a one-way ticket. I don't think it's too hard to believe.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    They are provisionally willing, I'll put more weight on that declaration once they are on their way. I also speculate that there are a number of people willing to go for historic prestige (or something like that), while most potential indentured tickets would have to see some pretty terrific economic prospects at the other end of the contract (it's warm on Earth and the air is free).
- bane 10y ago
  "Come to Mars!" "Build a Better Tomorrow!" "Start Over in a New Life![1] "Free Transit, Food, Clothes and Shelter![2]" "Only a 5 year contract!" [1] new identities and Martian Citizenships issued after a simple medical checkup [2] air and water are not included in this great deal