5 ms·

So, between the lines - Twitter looks ahead to move to Java 8 and finally ditch Scala?

by jondot 10y ago

samkone 10y ago
Hum .. don't think so. Not quite yet at least. Underneath this, there is Finagle on top of which most services at Twitter is built on. It offers a java API, but remains a Scala library. And there's still a lot of existing code inside to twitter to ditch Scala right away. Java 8 is awesome, but Java is still not an FP language.
- sandGorgon 10y ago
  IMHO the problem with Java 8 is not the language but framework support. Except SparkJava, most other frameworks use Java 8 as a "upgraded java compiler". Tge canonical way to write code is still Java 6. I think the best way to upgrade your java codebase is Kotlin. On the server side, Kotlin +vertx is extremely compelling.. on the Android side, Kotlin pretty much kills it.
  - jondot 10y ago
    I agree. This is exactly the move I've made when I was CTO of a company needing a move to the JVM from .NET. Given the options of Java, Scala - I moved to picking Kotlin. In many ways, Kotlin for me is Scala without the different ways to hang yourself. I wish it was given more credit that it gets right now outside of the Android circles.
    - sandGorgon 10y ago
      that is very interesting! could you talk about the framework that you used? im particularly concerned about ORM and database connectivity.
      - jondot 10y ago
        If by framework you mean web framework, I've used Dropwizard. It's a lean and mean modern-java option, and it's not a Kotlin native thing (you do have these). You can use any Kotlin or traditional Java framework out there transparently (that's a good value of Kotlin). For ORM, Dropwizard and its ecosystem got you covered. Also dropping out to Java when ever you want can be done in the same project (which I encouraged) seamlessly both in terms of how Java and Kotlin interoperate, and in terms of Intellij, which is first-class in both languages because Kotlin is Jetbrains' baby, and, because Java has been best supported by Intellij for ages (can't really find that kind of thing anywhere else).
Larrikin 10y ago
Why ditch Scala completely?
- brandur 10y ago
  I'm also curious about this one — I always found Scala to be a pretty messy language to write (the code starts elegant, but gets convoluted pretty fast), but I'd love to hear how insiders are thinking about it.
- jondot 10y ago
  Last I've heard, Twitter was "stuck" with their own version of Scala (was it off 2.10?). Typesafe becoming Lightbend (i.e. not Scala focused anymore) for doing business, Odersky moving all of his focus to Dotty, and core Scala contributors leaving. That's my intuition of asking.
  - saryant 10y ago
    That is not true.
  - simono 10y ago
    Kotlin is a joke, but Scala's mismanagement and treatment of its contributors might be its undoing. Source: #1/#2 top active community contributor (depends on whether you count commits or locs in scala/scala) leaving Scala, because I'm tired of their shit.
    - sandGorgon 10y ago
      why do you call kotlin a joke? because it is extremely popular in the Android world for large production apps. plus with the upcoming kotlin 1.1 release and vertx's upcoming first class support for kotlin.. it is beginning to build traction on the server side. what is really exciting is Kotlin scripting. Gradle is the first project to start using it.
    - virtualwhys 10y ago
      Yeah, Scala's a bit of a mess right now, definitely not thrilled that the flagship web framework (Play) won't be supporting Scala 2.12 until the 2.6 release (i.e. 4-6 months from now), which is absurd given that pretty much the entire ecosystem has a 2.12 release at this point :\ As for typed alternatives, there's no substitute for Scala. Maybe Haskell or OCaml if you leave the JVM, but otherwise it's pretty much a language wasteland for anyone that's taken a dip in the ocean of Scala. > because I'm tired of their shit heh, think it goes both ways ;-) As an observer none of the powers that be took a liking to you calling them out, justified or not (agree that community contrib takes a back seat to Lightbend/EPFL). Good luck wherever you've wound up (and thanks for the biased Either contrib in 2.12, finally!)

So, between the lines - Twitter looks ahead to move to Java 8 and finally ditch Scala?

by jondot 10y ago

So, between the lines - Twitter looks ahead to move to Java 8 and finally ditch Scala?

Hum .. don't think so. Not quite yet at least. Underneath this, there is Finagle on top of which most services at Twitter is built on. It offers a java API, but remains a Scala library. And there's still a lot of existing code inside to twitter to ditch Scala right away. Java 8 is awesome, but Java is still not an FP language.

sandGorgon 10y ago
IMHO the problem with Java 8 is not the language but framework support. Except SparkJava, most other frameworks use Java 8 as a "upgraded java compiler". Tge canonical way to write code is still Java 6. I think the best way to upgrade your java codebase is Kotlin. On the server side, Kotlin +vertx is extremely compelling.. on the Android side, Kotlin pretty much kills it.
- jondot 10y ago
  I agree. This is exactly the move I've made when I was CTO of a company needing a move to the JVM from .NET. Given the options of Java, Scala - I moved to picking Kotlin. In many ways, Kotlin for me is Scala without the different ways to hang yourself. I wish it was given more credit that it gets right now outside of the Android circles.
  - sandGorgon 10y ago
    that is very interesting! could you talk about the framework that you used? im particularly concerned about ORM and database connectivity.
    - jondot 10y ago
      If by framework you mean web framework, I've used Dropwizard. It's a lean and mean modern-java option, and it's not a Kotlin native thing (you do have these). You can use any Kotlin or traditional Java framework out there transparently (that's a good value of Kotlin). For ORM, Dropwizard and its ecosystem got you covered. Also dropping out to Java when ever you want can be done in the same project (which I encouraged) seamlessly both in terms of how Java and Kotlin interoperate, and in terms of Intellij, which is first-class in both languages because Kotlin is Jetbrains' baby, and, because Java has been best supported by Intellij for ages (can't really find that kind of thing anywhere else).

Larrikin 10y ago

Why ditch Scala completely?

brandur 10y ago
I'm also curious about this one — I always found Scala to be a pretty messy language to write (the code starts elegant, but gets convoluted pretty fast), but I'd love to hear how insiders are thinking about it.
jondot 10y ago
Last I've heard, Twitter was "stuck" with their own version of Scala (was it off 2.10?). Typesafe becoming Lightbend (i.e. not Scala focused anymore) for doing business, Odersky moving all of his focus to Dotty, and core Scala contributors leaving. That's my intuition of asking.
- saryant 10y ago
  That is not true.
- simono 10y ago
  Kotlin is a joke, but Scala's mismanagement and treatment of its contributors might be its undoing. Source: #1/#2 top active community contributor (depends on whether you count commits or locs in scala/scala) leaving Scala, because I'm tired of their shit.
  - sandGorgon 10y ago
    why do you call kotlin a joke? because it is extremely popular in the Android world for large production apps. plus with the upcoming kotlin 1.1 release and vertx's upcoming first class support for kotlin.. it is beginning to build traction on the server side. what is really exciting is Kotlin scripting. Gradle is the first project to start using it.
  - virtualwhys 10y ago
    Yeah, Scala's a bit of a mess right now, definitely not thrilled that the flagship web framework (Play) won't be supporting Scala 2.12 until the 2.6 release (i.e. 4-6 months from now), which is absurd given that pretty much the entire ecosystem has a 2.12 release at this point :\ As for typed alternatives, there's no substitute for Scala. Maybe Haskell or OCaml if you leave the JVM, but otherwise it's pretty much a language wasteland for anyone that's taken a dip in the ocean of Scala. > because I'm tired of their shit heh, think it goes both ways ;-) As an observer none of the powers that be took a liking to you calling them out, justified or not (agree that community contrib takes a back seat to Lightbend/EPFL). Good luck wherever you've wound up (and thanks for the biased Either contrib in 2.12, finally!)