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They went for a closed solution instead of using a standard based solution. They also went for wireless dimmer/light switches instead of wired. If you build fo

by Loic 10y ago

They went for a closed solution instead of using a standard based solution. They also went for wireless dimmer/light switches instead of wired. If you build for 40 years, stop thinking like a young programmer jumping on the new trend, you need to go with robust solutions even if they cost 10% more. If you build a house, you can even wire it in a way to later add the smart features just where you effectively need them.

Spooky23 10y ago
This guy seems to just be a mark with too much money and too little sense. You can almost hear the salesman saying "you'll save money on the electrican with this $200 light switch!"
- jondiggsit 10y ago
  This is one of the biggest issues. If you do not have a smart builder advising you on every step of the process, you will eventually take horrible advise from a salesman and end up screwing yourself. Nothing wrong with "smart" lighting systems (Lutron). These lighting systems are essential for large homes. Just need to be installed properly.
MrQuincle 10y ago
What's bad about wireless? I don't think that's why the smart home of this person turned out to be a terrible experience. For example he describes how adding a generator made influenced the lighting. That didn't sounded like a wireless problem, but a problem with either the relays or mosfets/igbts that were used for switching or dimming, or the power circuitry that made the chips reset in those units. There are also wired systems that use the existing wires for example. It's just apples and oranges and I don't think wireless vs wired is the issue at hand here.
- jjoonathan 10y ago
  > What's bad about wireless? You answered your own question: > For example he describes how adding a generator made influenced the lighting. That didn't sounded like a wireless problem, but a problem with either the relays or mosfets/igbts that were used for switching or dimming, or the power circuitry that made the chips reset in those units. The long, long list of subtle things that can go wrong with wireless is the problem. Reassigning blame to the Wan Hung Lo SMPS barfing RF all over the place doesn't solve anything unless the person in question has the expertise, tools, and patience to track down and address the interference at the source. Putting in wires that easily reject such interference, OTOH, solves the problem nicely.
  - MrQuincle 10y ago
    The things I describe are all relevant to wired systems. They might be the real reason why the system brakes down. Your statement that it must be interference is unfounded. It's an unfair statement trying to tie reliability to one aspect of the system. It's like a doctor who never prescribes oral medicines because the stomach is such a hellish place. Wireless might not be the weakest link you think it is. In the end wireless is just EM waves, it is just physics. There is no way it violates the laws of physics.
    - y4mi 10y ago
      wireless systems essentially work on a hub with silly amount of noise. there are always corrupt packets, despite several layers of validation. Technically, these corrupt packets can also occur on wired systems, their frequency is however lower by several orders of magnitude. each of these corrupt packets has potential of causing lasting strange behavior. especially if we're talking about a closed source system from a niche vendor. a more fitting metaphor would be a doctor that blames the patients lung cancer on his smoking habit. while there might've been another reason for the affliction, that possibility is low.
      - MrQuincle 10y ago
        Wireless systems do not necessarily work with a hub. The problem of closed source and niche vendors is also a different one. I feel sorry for people that get advice from the current home automation dealers. What seems to be important to them is to make a lot of money. One of the ways to guarantee that is by forcing customers to wire their homes completely and require them to contact them for any change imaginable. This is how KNX is sold in Europe. Subsequently they create a very crappy KNX wireless protocol almost as a marketing trick. With DALI for lighting its the same. Moreover, when those lobbying groups come up with a DC standard, even the voltage level is not standardized. There are also plenty of wireless systems that aren't attacked for being "wireless". People know that if "3G" or "4G" "doesn't work" it is a matter of devices and coverage. If it is GPS they know it's getting a signal from satellites. Light is wireless as well, so with infrared they often know it's changing the battery in the remote or pointing more accurately to the receiver. You will probably see the same behavior with wireless charging. A few people will swear by a cable. However, the majority of people will be happy to get rid of them. Yes, first the distance might not be large enough and a few protocols have to be standardized, but there is no reason that it can't be done reliably. And about corruption of packets. We already know how to handle stochastic processes since UDP. Besides that, human communication is inherently fuzzy and lossy. That's not a reason to despise it. Collaborative filtering methods that now form e.g. the blockchain backbone come also from fields such as wireless (sensor) networks to give one example of how people make reliable systems out of noisy ones.
- jondiggsit 10y ago
  The big issue of this story is this: NEVER INSTALL CONTROL4. It's utter garbaged. I hate to say it, really hate to say it, but if you want this level of integration in a system the only option is Crestron. I was hoping for a while that Savant would be a great option, but I fear they are backing away from the "PRO"-level integration now.
alkonaut 10y ago
If you build a "smart home" begin by accepting that all of lf it should be written off and replaced in 10 years. If the system is wired, chances are only central hubs/displays need to be changed. With a wireless system then ALL the switches and sockets will have to be changed.
- szul 10y ago
  That's my concern with converting my home. Thermostat, lights, security, plugs, etc. Would hate to have to replace it all shortly down the road.
- mcguire 10y ago
  "...accepting that all of lf it should be written off and replaced in 10 years...only central hubs/displays need to be changed." That seems contradictory.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    I meant that the "modern" tech must be replaced, if you use wireless then senders and receivers (meaning a central hub and all fixtures) likely has to go in order to support a new standard. With a wired system there is some hope that the wires can stay and carry a new standard.
- jondiggsit 10y ago
  This is the only way to build these systems. If you are building a new house, wire everything to a central location. This way, any necessary upgrades can all be a matter of swapping out hardware. Even with the switching, if Lutron goes out of style, atleast all of the switch-legs are run to a central location. The entire system could be replaced (and the devices). It would not be cheap, but at least it's possible. Replacing devices in the wall isn't the worst thing in the world.
jondiggsit 10y ago
The system installed sounds like a Lutron RA2 system. These systems can work wirelessly, but if it's new construction, you're a fool not to hardwire it was well (THE WALLS ARE OPEN).

by Loic 10y ago

Spooky23 10y ago

This guy seems to just be a mark with too much money and too little sense. You can almost hear the salesman saying "you'll save money on the electrican with this $200 light switch!"

jondiggsit 10y ago
This is one of the biggest issues. If you do not have a smart builder advising you on every step of the process, you will eventually take horrible advise from a salesman and end up screwing yourself. Nothing wrong with "smart" lighting systems (Lutron). These lighting systems are essential for large homes. Just need to be installed properly.

MrQuincle 10y ago

What's bad about wireless? I don't think that's why the smart home of this person turned out to be a terrible experience. For example he describes how adding a generator made influenced the lighting. That didn't sounded like a wireless problem, but a problem with either the relays or mosfets/igbts that were used for switching or dimming, or the power circuitry that made the chips reset in those units. There are also wired systems that use the existing wires for example. It's just apples and oranges and I don't think wireless vs wired is the issue at hand here.

jjoonathan 10y ago
> What's bad about wireless? You answered your own question: > For example he describes how adding a generator made influenced the lighting. That didn't sounded like a wireless problem, but a problem with either the relays or mosfets/igbts that were used for switching or dimming, or the power circuitry that made the chips reset in those units. The long, long list of subtle things that can go wrong with wireless is the problem. Reassigning blame to the Wan Hung Lo SMPS barfing RF all over the place doesn't solve anything unless the person in question has the expertise, tools, and patience to track down and address the interference at the source. Putting in wires that easily reject such interference, OTOH, solves the problem nicely.
- MrQuincle 10y ago
  The things I describe are all relevant to wired systems. They might be the real reason why the system brakes down. Your statement that it must be interference is unfounded. It's an unfair statement trying to tie reliability to one aspect of the system. It's like a doctor who never prescribes oral medicines because the stomach is such a hellish place. Wireless might not be the weakest link you think it is. In the end wireless is just EM waves, it is just physics. There is no way it violates the laws of physics.
  - y4mi 10y ago
    wireless systems essentially work on a hub with silly amount of noise. there are always corrupt packets, despite several layers of validation. Technically, these corrupt packets can also occur on wired systems, their frequency is however lower by several orders of magnitude. each of these corrupt packets has potential of causing lasting strange behavior. especially if we're talking about a closed source system from a niche vendor. a more fitting metaphor would be a doctor that blames the patients lung cancer on his smoking habit. while there might've been another reason for the affliction, that possibility is low.
    - MrQuincle 10y ago
      Wireless systems do not necessarily work with a hub. The problem of closed source and niche vendors is also a different one. I feel sorry for people that get advice from the current home automation dealers. What seems to be important to them is to make a lot of money. One of the ways to guarantee that is by forcing customers to wire their homes completely and require them to contact them for any change imaginable. This is how KNX is sold in Europe. Subsequently they create a very crappy KNX wireless protocol almost as a marketing trick. With DALI for lighting its the same. Moreover, when those lobbying groups come up with a DC standard, even the voltage level is not standardized. There are also plenty of wireless systems that aren't attacked for being "wireless". People know that if "3G" or "4G" "doesn't work" it is a matter of devices and coverage. If it is GPS they know it's getting a signal from satellites. Light is wireless as well, so with infrared they often know it's changing the battery in the remote or pointing more accurately to the receiver. You will probably see the same behavior with wireless charging. A few people will swear by a cable. However, the majority of people will be happy to get rid of them. Yes, first the distance might not be large enough and a few protocols have to be standardized, but there is no reason that it can't be done reliably. And about corruption of packets. We already know how to handle stochastic processes since UDP. Besides that, human communication is inherently fuzzy and lossy. That's not a reason to despise it. Collaborative filtering methods that now form e.g. the blockchain backbone come also from fields such as wireless (sensor) networks to give one example of how people make reliable systems out of noisy ones.
jondiggsit 10y ago
The big issue of this story is this: NEVER INSTALL CONTROL4. It's utter garbaged. I hate to say it, really hate to say it, but if you want this level of integration in a system the only option is Crestron. I was hoping for a while that Savant would be a great option, but I fear they are backing away from the "PRO"-level integration now.

alkonaut 10y ago

If you build a "smart home" begin by accepting that all of lf it should be written off and replaced in 10 years. If the system is wired, chances are only central hubs/displays need to be changed. With a wireless system then ALL the switches and sockets will have to be changed.

szul 10y ago
That's my concern with converting my home. Thermostat, lights, security, plugs, etc. Would hate to have to replace it all shortly down the road.
mcguire 10y ago
"...accepting that all of lf it should be written off and replaced in 10 years...only central hubs/displays need to be changed." That seems contradictory.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  I meant that the "modern" tech must be replaced, if you use wireless then senders and receivers (meaning a central hub and all fixtures) likely has to go in order to support a new standard. With a wired system there is some hope that the wires can stay and carry a new standard.
jondiggsit 10y ago
This is the only way to build these systems. If you are building a new house, wire everything to a central location. This way, any necessary upgrades can all be a matter of swapping out hardware. Even with the switching, if Lutron goes out of style, atleast all of the switch-legs are run to a central location. The entire system could be replaced (and the devices). It would not be cheap, but at least it's possible. Replacing devices in the wall isn't the worst thing in the world.

jondiggsit 10y ago

The system installed sounds like a Lutron RA2 system. These systems can work wirelessly, but if it's new construction, you're a fool not to hardwire it was well (THE WALLS ARE OPEN).