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So I guess we all think it is legit that this ad has 96 points in 3 hours. More than anything else on HN in this time period.

by pfisch 10y ago

ghostwreck 10y ago
Isn't that what most tech announcements are?
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Seems pretty legit to me: it's of interest, both actually and conceptually, it could inspire discussion, and it's just flat-out cool. Besides, HN is full of ads: hiring boards, show HNs of products HN users have worked on, various nonsense from HN startups, ads from other companies popping up on the front page ("hey, our new product launched this week"), and so on. And that's not even mentioning all the advertising for projects that users do inside threads: How often have you heard kaz essentially advertising TXR, his project? (although to his credit, he only does it when it's relevant to the discussion, or if TXR would help with a problem another user mentioned: many are less restrained).
saycheese 10y ago
Point of HN is to share. As long as what is shared follows the guidelines, that's literally all that matters. Everyone once in awhile you'll see something that's clearly attempting to exploit HN to promote whatever they're pushing, put I don't see anything that fits a pattern like that and appears to be well within the scope of the guidelines.
- pfisch 10y ago
  Is the point of hn to make a bunch of bot accounts on proxies to massively upvote your ad in the first hour?
  - ekiru 10y ago
    I think you're right that that is not the point of HN, but I think HN attempts to automatically (and the HN moderators attempt to non-automatically in some cases) detect various kinds of voting abuse, including that kind. It's possible that these detection mechanisms are flawed and that this story was upvoted in that way but managed to get past those mechanisms, but another possibility is that people found the concept interesting and upvoted for that reason (or hoped for it to produce some interesting discussion). Many of the other comments (most of which do post-date your original complaint, of course) do seem to support the hypothesis that some HN users would find it interesting. With that said (and assuming you have sufficient karma to flag stories), I think that believing a story to have reached the front page via such abusive voting would be a good reason to flag the story, which will bring it to the attention of the mods, who hopefully would be able to determine whether anything improper was in fact going on.
    - pfisch 10y ago
      So do you think the mods are paid more than the marketers pushing stuff to the top? As a person who has benefited from having posts on the top of reddit I can tell you that there is a massive incentive to manipulate the system and that mods do not really have enough incentive or resources to stop them. It is basically like trying to keep drugs from crossing the border. The people who make money from the drugs can marshal massive resources in order to get the them across the border, and the will/resources just aren't there on the opposing side to really stop them. r/gaming is massively gamed, r/news the mods are in on the gaming and have made it illegal to post links that don't lead to big news sources. This was done under the guise of making r/news more legit I guess, but it is hard to believe the fix wasn't in. Also mods of r/gaming are probably also in on it because there is just too much money at stake. Try to contact some of the users posting gta 5 gifs on the front page and see how real they are if you don't believe me. It strains credibility to believe that this post had a massive number of upvotes in the first 3 hours and almost no comments, and it is a pretty blatant advertorial. I think it did gain some real traction after that, but when you boost something into a high visibility position it always generates some decent numbers. The question is would it have actually gotten to the top on its own? I really doubt it. There is no smoking gun here and there never will be. It is incredibly easy to make 100 accounts on proxies and make some comments with them and then upvote a post. We are talking about one employee for less than a week of work. The payoff is very large and it is basically untraceable by mods. It happens all the time on reddit and hn.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
So are you proposing that Hacker News, a website that regularly covers startups with millions of dollars of investor money, has chosen to fake upvotes to shill for an ultra-niche one-man tabletop game? Or are you saying that HN is somehow able to detect and deflect vote manipulation for the former but not the latter? 'Cause I think "HN readers are into cryptography/security and tabletop RPGs" is a way more likely theory than either of those.

So I guess we all think it is legit that this ad has 96 points in 3 hours. More than anything else on HN in this time period.

by pfisch 10y ago

So I guess we all think it is legit that this ad has 96 points in 3 hours. More than anything else on HN in this time period.

ghostwreck 10y ago

Isn't that what most tech announcements are?

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

Seems pretty legit to me: it's of interest, both actually and conceptually, it could inspire discussion, and it's just flat-out cool. Besides, HN is full of ads: hiring boards, show HNs of products HN users have worked on, various nonsense from HN startups, ads from other companies popping up on the front page ("hey, our new product launched this week"), and so on. And that's not even mentioning all the advertising for projects that users do inside threads: How often have you heard kaz essentially advertising TXR, his project? (although to his credit, he only does it when it's relevant to the discussion, or if TXR would help with a problem another user mentioned: many are less restrained).

saycheese 10y ago

Point of HN is to share. As long as what is shared follows the guidelines, that's literally all that matters. Everyone once in awhile you'll see something that's clearly attempting to exploit HN to promote whatever they're pushing, put I don't see anything that fits a pattern like that and appears to be well within the scope of the guidelines.

pfisch 10y ago
Is the point of hn to make a bunch of bot accounts on proxies to massively upvote your ad in the first hour?
- ekiru 10y ago
  I think you're right that that is not the point of HN, but I think HN attempts to automatically (and the HN moderators attempt to non-automatically in some cases) detect various kinds of voting abuse, including that kind. It's possible that these detection mechanisms are flawed and that this story was upvoted in that way but managed to get past those mechanisms, but another possibility is that people found the concept interesting and upvoted for that reason (or hoped for it to produce some interesting discussion). Many of the other comments (most of which do post-date your original complaint, of course) do seem to support the hypothesis that some HN users would find it interesting. With that said (and assuming you have sufficient karma to flag stories), I think that believing a story to have reached the front page via such abusive voting would be a good reason to flag the story, which will bring it to the attention of the mods, who hopefully would be able to determine whether anything improper was in fact going on.
  - pfisch 10y ago
    So do you think the mods are paid more than the marketers pushing stuff to the top? As a person who has benefited from having posts on the top of reddit I can tell you that there is a massive incentive to manipulate the system and that mods do not really have enough incentive or resources to stop them. It is basically like trying to keep drugs from crossing the border. The people who make money from the drugs can marshal massive resources in order to get the them across the border, and the will/resources just aren't there on the opposing side to really stop them. r/gaming is massively gamed, r/news the mods are in on the gaming and have made it illegal to post links that don't lead to big news sources. This was done under the guise of making r/news more legit I guess, but it is hard to believe the fix wasn't in. Also mods of r/gaming are probably also in on it because there is just too much money at stake. Try to contact some of the users posting gta 5 gifs on the front page and see how real they are if you don't believe me. It strains credibility to believe that this post had a massive number of upvotes in the first 3 hours and almost no comments, and it is a pretty blatant advertorial. I think it did gain some real traction after that, but when you boost something into a high visibility position it always generates some decent numbers. The question is would it have actually gotten to the top on its own? I really doubt it. There is no smoking gun here and there never will be. It is incredibly easy to make 100 accounts on proxies and make some comments with them and then upvote a post. We are talking about one employee for less than a week of work. The payoff is very large and it is basically untraceable by mods. It happens all the time on reddit and hn.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

So are you proposing that Hacker News, a website that regularly covers startups with millions of dollars of investor money, has chosen to fake upvotes to shill for an ultra-niche one-man tabletop game? Or are you saying that HN is somehow able to detect and deflect vote manipulation for the former but not the latter? 'Cause I think "HN readers are into cryptography/security and tabletop RPGs" is a way more likely theory than either of those.