6 ms·

I guess most of the world could live in safe spaces like this? But for the creators and doers it's horrific. We move forward by being challenged. That include

I guess most of the world could live in safe spaces like this? But for the creators and doers it's horrific. We move forward by being challenged. That includes everything. (until AI has the ability to filter out things that challenge but don't move us forward)

vanderreeah 10y ago
If by safe spaces you mean places where people of colour aren't subjected to racism, gay people aren't subjected to homophobia and women aren't subjected to misogyny, then I fail to see how any of these types of attack would help anyone "move forward", even "creators".
- jdavis703 10y ago
  A safe space was originally a place where you could have a discussion about anything. A transgender individual could sit down with say an evangelical pastor and have an honest discussion about issues they disagree on without ad hominem attacks, fear of saying the wrong thing, etc. Somehow Safe Spaces came to be regarded as a place safe from anything remotely controversial, which hinders having conversation with people on the other side of the divide.
  - vanderreeah 10y ago
    The problem here is that we don't have a fixed definition of this relatively new concept. Your description here of safe spaces as places devoid of controversy does not match up with my experience of encountering the concept in the world and online. As I said, for me it means a place where prejudices are not expressed in (in your words) ad hominem attacks, not a place where complex, innovative thinking is forbidden. I'm not saying my experience of the concept is right and yours is wrong, but the fact is this discussion is bound to end in mutual confusion from the get-go given our differing understandings of 'safe space'.
- kristofferR 10y ago
  That's what safe spaces are defined as in the dictionary, but it's not what they are in practise though. In practise it's often a system of oppressing dissenting opinions and voluntary segregation.
  - vanderreeah 10y ago
    I can only say that when you say "in practise" you sound dogmatic, defensive and vague. I am going on the assumption that you have not (as I have not) performed any kind of scientific / sociological investigation into this and that in fact when you say "in practise" you mean "in the limited set of encounters with safe spaces that I have experienced". I admit you say "often", thereby admitting the possibility that sometimes a safe space could accord with its dictionary definition. But your comment is mostly just the impotent expression of hearsay. At the very least an example ought to be given. Without that bare minimum I really can't understand why your comment exists.
    - kristofferR 10y ago
      I don't really understand the point of your comment either, you didn't give any examples or give any indications that you have performed any scientific/sociological investigation into safe spaces either. My phrasing of the comment wasn't the best, I admit that, but you made an unsubstantiated claim to what safe spaces are in the comment I replied to, just as unsubstantiated as my claims. I was actually deliberately vague in the comment. Unfortunately it's usually not a good idea to post examples in forum discussions like this, since it quickly turns into a pointless competition where the part who wastes the least time googling for examples/counter-examples/criticizing the examples the other gave are considered the loser. If I had had posted examples you would probably have clicked them, looked for flaws, wasted time criticising them and googled for examples to make your own point. Then I would have had to do the same with your examples. And so on, until one of us grew tired of it, none the wiser. I could have posted a lot of links about safe spaces, but in practise I would just do the googling for you. NYT wrote this week about how Trump supporters feel like they need their own safe spaces on college campuses, which is a sad testament to the division and increasing political segregation in America, no matters if its trolling or genuinely felt.
- nilved 10y ago
  Censorship tends to have more implications than that
veddox 10y ago
We move forward by being challenged. We do not move forward by being insulted, slurred or trolled. Mutual respect is the necessary foundation for any constructive interaction.
- dqv 10y ago
  Are you implying that "safe spaces" promote constructive interaction and mutual respect? Being gay, a safe space is the only place I've ever gone and been called a homophobe and then kicked out. They don't promote constructive interaction and mutual respect. They promote further exclusion: a place where minorities with minority opinions are kicked out.
  - zhemao 10y ago
    Imzy is not, nor attempting to be, a safe space by that definition. From the article: "You can get your feelings hurt. You can't get death threats." So far, most of the people that have received bans were like the people who ran the safe space you were kicked out of.
noobermin 10y ago
Do you then consider hacker news a "safe space?" Many of the things they don't allow aren't allowed here.
siidooloo 10y ago
Yes people should be challenged. They should be challenged by being told we expect them to act like adults. They should be challenged by being told it is unacceptable to threaten people with rape and murder.
melling 10y ago
Why is it a safe space? Trolling is completely different than challenging ideas. A lot of reddit is a complete waste of time. People want to be "clever" and have a yuck. There's a lot of noise.
matt4077 10y ago
Have you actually /been/ to reddit in the last year? The idea that anything of value is created by this raging mob of hateful teenagers with too much free time is laughable. FFS, they've just spent a month riling each other up about a Clinton/Podesta pedophile ring operating out of an italian restaurant. That may be "challenging" for some of them (because letters etc.), but it's not the stuff the next breakthrough in physics will be based on.
- Joeboy 10y ago
  I don't know anything about this Italian restaurant thing, probably because I spend time on Reddit and not wherever you learned about it.
- gtaylor 10y ago
  Can you further define "they"? Reddit has hundreds of thousands of communities in it. It seems like you are generalizing the actions of a tiny subset to the whole user base.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    I was speaking about the part of the community that would be affected by "censorship", as should be obvious from context, i. e. the post I was replying to. Nobody is talking about /r/askahistorian
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      No, that wasn't at all obvious. If what you're saying is that the bad parts of reddit are bad then I agree with you.

vanderreeah 10y ago

If by safe spaces you mean places where people of colour aren't subjected to racism, gay people aren't subjected to homophobia and women aren't subjected to misogyny, then I fail to see how any of these types of attack would help anyone "move forward", even "creators".

jdavis703 10y ago
A safe space was originally a place where you could have a discussion about anything. A transgender individual could sit down with say an evangelical pastor and have an honest discussion about issues they disagree on without ad hominem attacks, fear of saying the wrong thing, etc. Somehow Safe Spaces came to be regarded as a place safe from anything remotely controversial, which hinders having conversation with people on the other side of the divide.
- vanderreeah 10y ago
  The problem here is that we don't have a fixed definition of this relatively new concept. Your description here of safe spaces as places devoid of controversy does not match up with my experience of encountering the concept in the world and online. As I said, for me it means a place where prejudices are not expressed in (in your words) ad hominem attacks, not a place where complex, innovative thinking is forbidden. I'm not saying my experience of the concept is right and yours is wrong, but the fact is this discussion is bound to end in mutual confusion from the get-go given our differing understandings of 'safe space'.
kristofferR 10y ago
That's what safe spaces are defined as in the dictionary, but it's not what they are in practise though. In practise it's often a system of oppressing dissenting opinions and voluntary segregation.
- vanderreeah 10y ago
  I can only say that when you say "in practise" you sound dogmatic, defensive and vague. I am going on the assumption that you have not (as I have not) performed any kind of scientific / sociological investigation into this and that in fact when you say "in practise" you mean "in the limited set of encounters with safe spaces that I have experienced". I admit you say "often", thereby admitting the possibility that sometimes a safe space could accord with its dictionary definition. But your comment is mostly just the impotent expression of hearsay. At the very least an example ought to be given. Without that bare minimum I really can't understand why your comment exists.
  - kristofferR 10y ago
    I don't really understand the point of your comment either, you didn't give any examples or give any indications that you have performed any scientific/sociological investigation into safe spaces either. My phrasing of the comment wasn't the best, I admit that, but you made an unsubstantiated claim to what safe spaces are in the comment I replied to, just as unsubstantiated as my claims. I was actually deliberately vague in the comment. Unfortunately it's usually not a good idea to post examples in forum discussions like this, since it quickly turns into a pointless competition where the part who wastes the least time googling for examples/counter-examples/criticizing the examples the other gave are considered the loser. If I had had posted examples you would probably have clicked them, looked for flaws, wasted time criticising them and googled for examples to make your own point. Then I would have had to do the same with your examples. And so on, until one of us grew tired of it, none the wiser. I could have posted a lot of links about safe spaces, but in practise I would just do the googling for you. NYT wrote this week about how Trump supporters feel like they need their own safe spaces on college campuses, which is a sad testament to the division and increasing political segregation in America, no matters if its trolling or genuinely felt.
nilved 10y ago
Censorship tends to have more implications than that

veddox 10y ago

We move forward by being challenged. We do not move forward by being insulted, slurred or trolled. Mutual respect is the necessary foundation for any constructive interaction.

dqv 10y ago
Are you implying that "safe spaces" promote constructive interaction and mutual respect? Being gay, a safe space is the only place I've ever gone and been called a homophobe and then kicked out. They don't promote constructive interaction and mutual respect. They promote further exclusion: a place where minorities with minority opinions are kicked out.
- zhemao 10y ago
  Imzy is not, nor attempting to be, a safe space by that definition. From the article: "You can get your feelings hurt. You can't get death threats." So far, most of the people that have received bans were like the people who ran the safe space you were kicked out of.

noobermin 10y ago

Do you then consider hacker news a "safe space?" Many of the things they don't allow aren't allowed here.

siidooloo 10y ago

Yes people should be challenged. They should be challenged by being told we expect them to act like adults. They should be challenged by being told it is unacceptable to threaten people with rape and murder.

melling 10y ago

Why is it a safe space? Trolling is completely different than challenging ideas. A lot of reddit is a complete waste of time. People want to be "clever" and have a yuck. There's a lot of noise.

matt4077 10y ago

Have you actually /been/ to reddit in the last year? The idea that anything of value is created by this raging mob of hateful teenagers with too much free time is laughable. FFS, they've just spent a month riling each other up about a Clinton/Podesta pedophile ring operating out of an italian restaurant. That may be "challenging" for some of them (because letters etc.), but it's not the stuff the next breakthrough in physics will be based on.

Joeboy 10y ago
I don't know anything about this Italian restaurant thing, probably because I spend time on Reddit and not wherever you learned about it.
gtaylor 10y ago
Can you further define "they"? Reddit has hundreds of thousands of communities in it. It seems like you are generalizing the actions of a tiny subset to the whole user base.
- matt4077 10y ago
  I was speaking about the part of the community that would be affected by "censorship", as should be obvious from context, i. e. the post I was replying to. Nobody is talking about /r/askahistorian
  - Joeboy 10y ago
    No, that wasn't at all obvious. If what you're saying is that the bad parts of reddit are bad then I agree with you.