21 ms·

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life v

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commission system were their own IP, and that they would suffer damage if those changes were part of the overall IP we were selling to our prospective buyers. And it was absolute nonsense since their changes were just a collection of reports and small features which were part of the public domain since whenever. It took weeks to iron-out the agreement and obviously could have scuttled the buyout. And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release. The old adage is correct: plan for the worst, hope for the best.

isubkhankulov 10y ago
I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions This is great advice
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johnwheeler 10y ago
> Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable A company with resources could sue you for a number of bogus reasons if they wanted to be dicks.
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- dimino 10y ago
  Yeah but law isn't magic, you can take away their options by planning ahead.
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    You may be technically correct (the best kind of correct, of course), but companies do love their options. And for you to be able to take them away, you need to have some kind of negotiation leverage. If you're Geoffrey Hinton, you've got what you need; if you're Joe Schmoe, chances are you don't.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    I really disagree with this. The law is a type of magic.It's socially constructed. The idea of blind justice is sort of a fairytale. Reality shows us that some of the most powerful get away with murder while the people least able to defend themselves take plea deals rather than fight charges. At the very least, the law is subjective: http://khanism.org/security/legality/ http://khanism.org/security/legality/
  - marssaxman 10y ago
    No you can't. Anyone can sue you any time for any reason, and then it's just a matter of how badly you are going to lose: because even "winning" means you wasted tens of thousands of dollars, at minimum, paying lawyers to defend you. Your only defense, as a small player, is not to be noticed.
- chrshawkes 10y ago
  Let's make sure we unite to make these companies known yah?
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    Sadly legal settlements prevent talking about such things usually.
wfunction 10y ago
> And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release. How do you force a company to do something like that? What's in it for them to agree, especially when you're leaving?
- ImTalking 10y ago
  I had come to them with a couple of ideas during my employment which they had rejected but I said I may pursue. In addition, they had purchased my company so as with most buyouts there was the usual cultural and operational issues between myself and upper management. So I framed it that it would be good for both parties to release each other from any future claims and we could both go on our merry ways.
  - wfunction 10y ago
    Ahh, so I assume not something a typical employee could do. Thanks!
    - vinceguidry 10y ago
      The way you handle this as a typical employee is to not work for dicks. That way when they see you being successful they cheer you on rather than try to bring you down. Also, you don't always have no leverage to negotiate contract terms. When I separated from my last job, my severance agreement as given to me included a 2 year gag clause keeping me from talking about it to anyone. I negotiated it down to six months, using the time-honored tactic of bitching until I got my way. Bitching is a useful tool in the kind of low-stakes environment that most employee negotiations happen in. Legal action is the equivalent of nuclear warfare, if you're willing to bitch about something, the company, so long as you're not working for a bunch of dicks, is going to eventually open up about what they need to get out of a particular contract clause. This paves the way for a gentleman's agreement whereby you agree to not fuck their shit up, and they agree to not fuck yours up. In my case, what they wanted was for me to not lead an employee charge for better perks / compensation, and I just wanted to be able to yak about it on Hacker News. So I agreed to keep my mouth shut to my fellow employees about the agreement, and they agreed to reduce the length of the gag clause. But again, you can't be working for a bunch of dicks. You need to maintain good relationships with your bosses and company leadership and your work output and ethic should never be in question. You are, in other words, loyal to each other. It's great to be ambitious and to want more out of life, but you shouldn't stomp all over the people who are helping you to get there. Every time I've ever seen one of these "former employer fucked with me after I moved on" stories, the employee in question was clearly working for a bunch of dicks. Your intuition is your most valuable asset as a little guy. Your chances of getting stepped on can range from 0% all the way up to 100% if you're working in the entertainment biz where stepping on little guys is just the culture. You don't have to bury your head in the sand and ignore the risk.
chrisan 10y ago
> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? How does this work? I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right? * I worked on my project at night: here is my git log * I worked on my personal laptop * Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website
- bonoboTP 10y ago
  Are you not American? It seems like legal costs in the US are sky high and people are constantly afraid of getting sued. I think it's somewhat better in mainland Europe, at least I don't see such anxiety over getting sued or so many threats of suing someone.
  - dnt404-1 10y ago
    I am in Germany now. Can you tell me why this is not the case in mainland Europe? Is it much better in Europe to do side-project in lieu of the fear of getting sued?
    - bonoboTP 10y ago
      I don't have any experience in this. I simply hear less fear about getting sued when you're in the right (I don't know how it is with side projects, I was more reacting to the issue of getting sued when you're right). I think the legal costs of defending yourself aren't so extreme in Europe. Also, I think there's less suing culture in Europe than in the US. All those stories of people suing the microwave manufacturer for failing to warn about drying cats in it or cafés not writing "Warning! Hot!" on the cup etc. In such cases people can get extreme amounts of money in the US that is less usual in here I think.
  - chrisan 10y ago
    I am America. I am questioning why it is required to hire a lawyer for my example above
Tharkun 10y ago
> You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. Remember when little kids would die in factories doing dangerous jobs? No? Me neither. Know why? Because at some point people had enough, went on strike, attitudes and laws changed. If you live in an area where your employer can make your life miserable for no apparent reason, or where your employer can own you outside of work, then you need to help put a stop to that madness.
- zenlikethat 10y ago
  > Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. That's Joel's whole point, almost every single company had these restrictions written into your contract. And it's not possible to know if they're "the nice ones" who won't sue you ahead of time.
  - nightski 10y ago
    Simple. Don't work as an employee. This is the one industry where it really isn't that difficult. I took the leap 5 years ago and within 3 years quadrupled my income and have complete autonomy and freedom.
    - hkon 10y ago
      I did this as well. Best thing I ever did. However I find that when Isuggest this, people have all the reasons in the world not to. More $€ for us then.
    - dnt404-1 10y ago
      For those who like this idea, can we have a communication channel to ask how you did it?

isubkhankulov 10y ago

I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions This is great advice

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

johnwheeler 10y ago

> Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable A company with resources could sue you for a number of bogus reasons if they wanted to be dicks.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dimino 10y ago
Yeah but law isn't magic, you can take away their options by planning ahead.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  You may be technically correct (the best kind of correct, of course), but companies do love their options. And for you to be able to take them away, you need to have some kind of negotiation leverage. If you're Geoffrey Hinton, you've got what you need; if you're Joe Schmoe, chances are you don't.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  I really disagree with this. The law is a type of magic.It's socially constructed. The idea of blind justice is sort of a fairytale. Reality shows us that some of the most powerful get away with murder while the people least able to defend themselves take plea deals rather than fight charges. At the very least, the law is subjective: http://khanism.org/security/legality/ http://khanism.org/security/legality/
- marssaxman 10y ago
  No you can't. Anyone can sue you any time for any reason, and then it's just a matter of how badly you are going to lose: because even "winning" means you wasted tens of thousands of dollars, at minimum, paying lawyers to defend you. Your only defense, as a small player, is not to be noticed.
chrshawkes 10y ago
Let's make sure we unite to make these companies known yah?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  Sadly legal settlements prevent talking about such things usually.

wfunction 10y ago

> And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release. How do you force a company to do something like that? What's in it for them to agree, especially when you're leaving?

ImTalking 10y ago
I had come to them with a couple of ideas during my employment which they had rejected but I said I may pursue. In addition, they had purchased my company so as with most buyouts there was the usual cultural and operational issues between myself and upper management. So I framed it that it would be good for both parties to release each other from any future claims and we could both go on our merry ways.
- wfunction 10y ago
  Ahh, so I assume not something a typical employee could do. Thanks!
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    The way you handle this as a typical employee is to not work for dicks. That way when they see you being successful they cheer you on rather than try to bring you down. Also, you don't always have no leverage to negotiate contract terms. When I separated from my last job, my severance agreement as given to me included a 2 year gag clause keeping me from talking about it to anyone. I negotiated it down to six months, using the time-honored tactic of bitching until I got my way. Bitching is a useful tool in the kind of low-stakes environment that most employee negotiations happen in. Legal action is the equivalent of nuclear warfare, if you're willing to bitch about something, the company, so long as you're not working for a bunch of dicks, is going to eventually open up about what they need to get out of a particular contract clause. This paves the way for a gentleman's agreement whereby you agree to not fuck their shit up, and they agree to not fuck yours up. In my case, what they wanted was for me to not lead an employee charge for better perks / compensation, and I just wanted to be able to yak about it on Hacker News. So I agreed to keep my mouth shut to my fellow employees about the agreement, and they agreed to reduce the length of the gag clause. But again, you can't be working for a bunch of dicks. You need to maintain good relationships with your bosses and company leadership and your work output and ethic should never be in question. You are, in other words, loyal to each other. It's great to be ambitious and to want more out of life, but you shouldn't stomp all over the people who are helping you to get there. Every time I've ever seen one of these "former employer fucked with me after I moved on" stories, the employee in question was clearly working for a bunch of dicks. Your intuition is your most valuable asset as a little guy. Your chances of getting stepped on can range from 0% all the way up to 100% if you're working in the entertainment biz where stepping on little guys is just the culture. You don't have to bury your head in the sand and ignore the risk.

chrisan 10y ago

> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? How does this work? I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right? * I worked on my project at night: here is my git log * I worked on my personal laptop * Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website

bonoboTP 10y ago
Are you not American? It seems like legal costs in the US are sky high and people are constantly afraid of getting sued. I think it's somewhat better in mainland Europe, at least I don't see such anxiety over getting sued or so many threats of suing someone.
- dnt404-1 10y ago
  I am in Germany now. Can you tell me why this is not the case in mainland Europe? Is it much better in Europe to do side-project in lieu of the fear of getting sued?
  - bonoboTP 10y ago
    I don't have any experience in this. I simply hear less fear about getting sued when you're in the right (I don't know how it is with side projects, I was more reacting to the issue of getting sued when you're right). I think the legal costs of defending yourself aren't so extreme in Europe. Also, I think there's less suing culture in Europe than in the US. All those stories of people suing the microwave manufacturer for failing to warn about drying cats in it or cafés not writing "Warning! Hot!" on the cup etc. In such cases people can get extreme amounts of money in the US that is less usual in here I think.
- chrisan 10y ago
  I am America. I am questioning why it is required to hire a lawyer for my example above

Tharkun 10y ago

> You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. Remember when little kids would die in factories doing dangerous jobs? No? Me neither. Know why? Because at some point people had enough, went on strike, attitudes and laws changed. If you live in an area where your employer can make your life miserable for no apparent reason, or where your employer can own you outside of work, then you need to help put a stop to that madness.

zenlikethat 10y ago
> Don't work for companies that are dicks. If there's crap about them wanting to own you or your thoughts, don't sign it and get a different job elsewhere. That's Joel's whole point, almost every single company had these restrictions written into your contract. And it's not possible to know if they're "the nice ones" who won't sue you ahead of time.
- nightski 10y ago
  Simple. Don't work as an employee. This is the one industry where it really isn't that difficult. I took the leap 5 years ago and within 3 years quadrupled my income and have complete autonomy and freedom.
  - hkon 10y ago
    I did this as well. Best thing I ever did. However I find that when Isuggest this, people have all the reasons in the world not to. More $€ for us then.
  - dnt404-1 10y ago
    For those who like this idea, can we have a communication channel to ask how you did it?