5 ms·

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. B

This is a good article, but the "let them eat cake"-iness of the last paragraph is pretty chilling. > the only way to gain independence is to be independent. Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. I was hoping for a closing argument about how thoughtful employers could accommodate their legal requirements while also respecting independent employee creations. Instead he seems to just be saying that employees that want to keep their side projects should just quit. Reading that might give me pause about taking a position at Fog Creek.

skybrian 10y ago
Yes, it seems weird that he doesn't say how to fix this: Get written agreement from your employer that your side project is your own. Some employers even have a standard process for doing this. They might say no, but then you know not to put any more work into it.
- rqebmm 10y ago
  This is true, but ultimately if your company wants to be a dick about it, you could still end up having to fight them in court. They just have to say "when we signed that form you said it was a <domain A> app, but now it's turned into a <domain B> app which competes with our business. Hand it over." As Joel says, a judge/jury will probably be inclined to find for you, but you still have go through the pain and cost of litigation. Also, while it's not usually in a company's best interest to pick legal fights with their employees, the catch-22 is this: the only time it's worth it for them to be dicks is when/if your business takes off. I'm sure your employer doesn't care about your little news aggregator until you're shopping around for $100 million in VC funding. Ultimately he's right. If you seriously want to start a side business, quit your day job.
  - avmich 10y ago
    All startup advices, left and right, in unison say: it's way better to develop your product on somebody else's dime :) . Don't hurry to leave your work until your own business starts to fly. Go figure... What are the practical ways to benefit from side projects? It's hard enough to work on two works at the same time, would be sad if the results would be lost.
    - rqebmm 10y ago
      There's a difference between a project and a business, but the line is pretty blurry.
  - marcus_holmes 10y ago
    But you have to quit your day job before starting the side business, or working on it at all. Otherwise your ex-employer still has a claim on your business. The beauty of side projects is not having to make them pay the bills. As soon as you have to make them pay the rent, they stop being side projects. But having an ex-employer sue you for lots of money because your side project is booming is a great problem to have ;)
    - aithoughts 10y ago
      > is a great problem to have ;) Your comment is inspiring. The question then becomes, how much of your project's worth, as a percentage, are they going to come after you for?
      - marcus_holmes 10y ago
        that becomes a question for lawyers at the appropriate time. Put it like this: not having a side project because you're afraid your employer will sue will get you exactly and definitely $0. Having a successful side project will teach you a ton of useful stuff and probably earn you more than $0 even after the lawyers have finished arguing (depending on your definition of successful).
- lerpa 10y ago
  That may be a temporary bodge solution to this, but the final solution is to eradicate the kind of legal implications that being an employee entails, aside from the only fact that it is no different than you selling a service to the employer during the contracted working hours. An employee is nothing more than a consultant that, most of the time, works on location, and should legally be treated like that. Obviously that wouldn't stop you from signing your work away in a contract, but at least removes the whole "it's a different kind of transaction" legal mentality from it.
clay_to_n 10y ago
Not quit - above he outlines different attitudes the employing company might have about side projects. I think his message distilled would be that by default you may not own your side project - so talk with your employer, and maybe get an agreement in writing, if you want to change that.
dpc59 10y ago
It ticks me off how a lot of managers always forget about how the job market is a buyer's market when they write about it.
- uiri 10y ago
  Don't you mean a seller's market? A buyer's market would be in favour of the employer (they are buying labour). A job isn't a product that is bought by employees.
- savanaly 10y ago
  "Buyer's market" seems like it doesn't apply to this. Both sides in the market have ample selection and competition. I'd have a hard time saying which side you even mean is favored if you said it was imbalanced. Software companies seem to search vigorously for good hires and vice versa-- the sign of a healthy and competitive market.
bdowling 10y ago
> Instead he seems to just be saying that employees that want to keep their side projects should just quit. I thought he was suggesting that employees take it as an opportunity to negotiate for higher salary, since the company will be buying all of their inventive output. Then they should just work 9-5 and enjoy their free time by relaxing instead of working on side projects. That seems like pretty reasonable advice, unless you're in California, in which case an employee doesn't have that bargaining leverage.
- noobhater1000 10y ago
  And than you're just another shitpot 9-5 non-creative type.
tptacek 10y ago
Be a little careful, because I think you're reading a Stack Overflow question recast as a blog post (Spolsky just moved his blog from CityDesk --- can you believe he was still using CityDesk? --- to WordPress, and so I guess we'll be seeing some more stuff like this on it). People are less careful capturing all angles of an issue on forums than they are in blog posts. I assume Stack Overflow is just like most big software shops, in that if you have a side project you want to work on and be severable from your employer, you just fill out a little form and get it signed by your manager. You'd be pushing things to take it further than that, but I'll add anyways: if they're like most firms (and I have every reason to think they would be, since they're famously dev-friendly), even if you didn't follow this process, they're not going to fuck with you. It would be terrible for their own business. But if you're going to take a side project and turn it into a business, it behooves you to do things by the book, because the worst possible problems for a startup to have are the kind that don't become apparent until after your project is successful. (Also: Spolsky is the CEO of Stack Overflow; Anil Dash is the CEO of Fog Creek.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- joemi 10y ago
  To be fair, Dash was announced as CEO just a few days ago.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
savanaly 10y ago
I think the article was supposed to be informational, and from the perspective of the average software developer (who will almost certainly never have any contact with Fog Creek), rather than promotional and from the perspective of a tech CEO.

skybrian 10y ago

Yes, it seems weird that he doesn't say how to fix this: Get written agreement from your employer that your side project is your own. Some employers even have a standard process for doing this. They might say no, but then you know not to put any more work into it.

rqebmm 10y ago
This is true, but ultimately if your company wants to be a dick about it, you could still end up having to fight them in court. They just have to say "when we signed that form you said it was a <domain A> app, but now it's turned into a <domain B> app which competes with our business. Hand it over." As Joel says, a judge/jury will probably be inclined to find for you, but you still have go through the pain and cost of litigation. Also, while it's not usually in a company's best interest to pick legal fights with their employees, the catch-22 is this: the only time it's worth it for them to be dicks is when/if your business takes off. I'm sure your employer doesn't care about your little news aggregator until you're shopping around for $100 million in VC funding. Ultimately he's right. If you seriously want to start a side business, quit your day job.
- avmich 10y ago
  All startup advices, left and right, in unison say: it's way better to develop your product on somebody else's dime :) . Don't hurry to leave your work until your own business starts to fly. Go figure... What are the practical ways to benefit from side projects? It's hard enough to work on two works at the same time, would be sad if the results would be lost.
  - rqebmm 10y ago
    There's a difference between a project and a business, but the line is pretty blurry.
- marcus_holmes 10y ago
  But you have to quit your day job before starting the side business, or working on it at all. Otherwise your ex-employer still has a claim on your business. The beauty of side projects is not having to make them pay the bills. As soon as you have to make them pay the rent, they stop being side projects. But having an ex-employer sue you for lots of money because your side project is booming is a great problem to have ;)
  - aithoughts 10y ago
    > is a great problem to have ;) Your comment is inspiring. The question then becomes, how much of your project's worth, as a percentage, are they going to come after you for?
    - marcus_holmes 10y ago
      that becomes a question for lawyers at the appropriate time. Put it like this: not having a side project because you're afraid your employer will sue will get you exactly and definitely $0. Having a successful side project will teach you a ton of useful stuff and probably earn you more than $0 even after the lawyers have finished arguing (depending on your definition of successful).
lerpa 10y ago
That may be a temporary bodge solution to this, but the final solution is to eradicate the kind of legal implications that being an employee entails, aside from the only fact that it is no different than you selling a service to the employer during the contracted working hours. An employee is nothing more than a consultant that, most of the time, works on location, and should legally be treated like that. Obviously that wouldn't stop you from signing your work away in a contract, but at least removes the whole "it's a different kind of transaction" legal mentality from it.

clay_to_n 10y ago

Not quit - above he outlines different attitudes the employing company might have about side projects. I think his message distilled would be that by default you may not own your side project - so talk with your employer, and maybe get an agreement in writing, if you want to change that.

dpc59 10y ago

It ticks me off how a lot of managers always forget about how the job market is a buyer's market when they write about it.

uiri 10y ago
Don't you mean a seller's market? A buyer's market would be in favour of the employer (they are buying labour). A job isn't a product that is bought by employees.
savanaly 10y ago
"Buyer's market" seems like it doesn't apply to this. Both sides in the market have ample selection and competition. I'd have a hard time saying which side you even mean is favored if you said it was imbalanced. Software companies seem to search vigorously for good hires and vice versa-- the sign of a healthy and competitive market.

bdowling 10y ago

> Instead he seems to just be saying that employees that want to keep their side projects should just quit. I thought he was suggesting that employees take it as an opportunity to negotiate for higher salary, since the company will be buying all of their inventive output. Then they should just work 9-5 and enjoy their free time by relaxing instead of working on side projects. That seems like pretty reasonable advice, unless you're in California, in which case an employee doesn't have that bargaining leverage.

noobhater1000 10y ago
And than you're just another shitpot 9-5 non-creative type.

tptacek 10y ago

Be a little careful, because I think you're reading a Stack Overflow question recast as a blog post (Spolsky just moved his blog from CityDesk --- can you believe he was still using CityDesk? --- to WordPress, and so I guess we'll be seeing some more stuff like this on it). People are less careful capturing all angles of an issue on forums than they are in blog posts. I assume Stack Overflow is just like most big software shops, in that if you have a side project you want to work on and be severable from your employer, you just fill out a little form and get it signed by your manager. You'd be pushing things to take it further than that, but I'll add anyways: if they're like most firms (and I have every reason to think they would be, since they're famously dev-friendly), even if you didn't follow this process, they're not going to fuck with you. It would be terrible for their own business. But if you're going to take a side project and turn it into a business, it behooves you to do things by the book, because the worst possible problems for a startup to have are the kind that don't become apparent until after your project is successful. (Also: Spolsky is the CEO of Stack Overflow; Anil Dash is the CEO of Fog Creek.)

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
joemi 10y ago
To be fair, Dash was announced as CEO just a few days ago.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

savanaly 10y ago

I think the article was supposed to be informational, and from the perspective of the average software developer (who will almost certainly never have any contact with Fog Creek), rather than promotional and from the perspective of a tech CEO.