4 ms·

Well, Alan Kay and a couple of friends built an entire system in 2.8MB in 1998[1]. It is 2016 and "large companies" are still overrated. People who think we c

Well, Alan Kay and a couple of friends built an entire system in 2.8MB in 1998[1]. It is 2016 and "large companies" are still overrated. People who think we cannot do better are ignorant and probably overrated. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k

KirinDave 10y ago
I don't want to think or speculate. I want to see people do better and then we can congratulate people. Not before. Do better and people will recognize it. That's the best part of this industry.
- pierre_d528 10y ago
  People I know think before they act and sometimes do better. They also see much more than an "industry" or a "product". Best thing of all: we may have ≠ POV and still not hurt each other. Freedom!
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    I do not want ideology. I want tangible results that will improve the freedom, privacy and safety of the western world. Quite frankly, Google does more for this right now than any 3 open source competitors to gmail do, combined. Open source is irrelevant in most fields of user-facing software because they have insisted on being irrelevant. And any time a group forms a structure to do better, they're ceaselessly attacked by the community and given increasingly worse components to build off of.
    - pierre_d528 10y ago
      The cloud is going back to mainframes (e.g. Chromebook). Kay and 2.8MB system (Squeak). TCP/IP in 160 SLOC (Ian Piumarta). You mix Open source and Free software. Go have a real degree first (real science like physics), then maybe go back to computing. Cannot catch up with the 70s!
      - KirinDave 10y ago
        No one cares about Squeak anymore. We have browsers.
        pierre_d528 10y ago
        Average web page is > 2MB[1] Lol... you are really clueless. [1]: https://www.soasta.com/blog/page-bloat-average-web-page-2-mb/ https://www.soasta.com/blog/page-bloat-average-web-page-2-mb...
        KirinDave 10y ago
        But that's mostly raster images and fonts. Code density is quite low, and JavaScript takes many cues from SmallTalk. "Lol." A technical term.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        My physics diploma says that you're not contributing any useful arguments to the discussion at hand.
        pierre_d528 10y ago
        Your contribution is very interesting : it shows how little a diploma (a.k.a. "education") has to do with any kind of ability to produce anything useful. http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/475.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/475.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/538.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/538.abstract http://ner.sagepub.com/content/224/1/R29.abstract http://ner.sagepub.com/content/224/1/R29.abstract https://newrepublic.com/article/124943/america-overeducation-problem https://newrepublic.com/article/124943/america-overeducation... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304393294900477 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/03043932949... https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/lpritch/Education%20-%20docs/ED%20-%20Econ%20Growth,%20impact/where%20has%20all%20the%20education%20gone.pdf https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/lpritch/Education%20-%20docs/... http://repec.iza.org/dp5401.pdf http://repec.iza.org/dp5401.pdf http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2013/December/Differences-in-students-GCSE-scores-owe-more-to-genetics-than-environment.aspx http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2013/December/Differ... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289605001078 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289605... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2862754 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2862754 http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-going-broke-by-degree/#61726d15618a http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-goi... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_large_numbers_of_college_students_don_t_learn_much https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_l... https://www.amazon.com/Academically-Adrift-Limited-Learning-Campuses/dp/0226028569 https://www.amazon.com/Academically-Adrift-Limited-Learning-... http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/21-myths-that-undermine-educational-effectiveness/ http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/21-myths-th... http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/06/federal-student-loan-programs-subsidize-waste-and-redistribution-to-the-wealthy/#581f3406fbcc http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/06/federal-stud... http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus-on-the-brain-training-industry-from-the-scientific-community-2/ http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus... http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-going-broke-by-degree/#7a41f9f3618a http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-goi... https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-12-31/research-prowess-of-u-s-colleges-is-exaggerated https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-12-31/research-... http://economics.mit.edu/files/10414 http://economics.mit.edu/files/10414 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040162505000235 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040162505... http://www.nber.org/papers/w18315 http://www.nber.org/papers/w18315 http://www.nber.org/papers/w19895 http://www.nber.org/papers/w19895 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/upshot/how-to-improve-graduation-rates-at-community-colleges.html?_r= http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/upshot/how-to-improve-grad... http://hechingerreport.org/how-often-do-community-college-students-who-get-transfer-get-bachelors-degrees/ http://hechingerreport.org/how-often-do-community-college-st... https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40 http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/05/28/half-of-college-grads-are-working-jobs-that-dont-require-a-degree/#76325ab310bb http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/05/28/half-of-co...
  - anigbrowl 10y ago
    Freedom is wonderful, but we have a saying in the USA (from a famous court case): the rich as well as the poor are free to sleep under bridges. The meaning of this is that freedom without good resources is not actually that great. After all, you could be completely free from Google and every other technological capitalist firm right now by throwing away your computer, phone and so on, and returning to ink and paper for your communication requirements. But of course you don't want to do that because it would entail a terrible loss of convenience, and every time you needed some information you would be forced to make a trip to the library or bookstore, or ask someone else to find the information for you etc. etc.. There is nothing ethically or psychologically bad about such a life - many of us are old enough to remember growing up that way - but it will put you at a severe economic and social disadvantage compared to virtually all of your peers. In theory, I agree with you (and I mean that on many levels; I'm a devoted fan of Michel Foucault, for example). But I cannot eat theory, even if you consider it to be delicious cake.
    - pierre_d528 10y ago
      Here is something wonderfully tangible: Alan Kay and a couple of friends built an entire system in 2.8MB in 1998[1]. You can actually DO stuff with these techs: "How Smalltalk Enables World Record Breaking Performance"[2] Guys behind V8 are smalltalkers. Nothing "theoretical" here, just science. I do not care about pompous theory. For example, I do not believe in real numbers. I let "theory" to poets and most academics. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9dgLW9m7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9dgLW9m7w
      - anigbrowl 10y ago
        Many people here are politely explaining to you that these tools have great intentions but that they are poorly designed, and you respond with irrelevant assertions about performance records. It is as if people tell you that a velo is unsuitable for construction work, and you respond with praise of Romain Bardet. This discussion is about 'Free, Decentralized, Ethical Internet built on Solidarity.' Who cares about record-breaking Smalltalk performance? It is irrelevant. None of your contributions to this discussion have added anything of value.

KirinDave 10y ago

I don't want to think or speculate. I want to see people do better and then we can congratulate people. Not before. Do better and people will recognize it. That's the best part of this industry.

pierre_d528 10y ago
People I know think before they act and sometimes do better. They also see much more than an "industry" or a "product". Best thing of all: we may have ≠ POV and still not hurt each other. Freedom!
- KirinDave 10y ago
  I do not want ideology. I want tangible results that will improve the freedom, privacy and safety of the western world. Quite frankly, Google does more for this right now than any 3 open source competitors to gmail do, combined. Open source is irrelevant in most fields of user-facing software because they have insisted on being irrelevant. And any time a group forms a structure to do better, they're ceaselessly attacked by the community and given increasingly worse components to build off of.
  - pierre_d528 10y ago
    The cloud is going back to mainframes (e.g. Chromebook). Kay and 2.8MB system (Squeak). TCP/IP in 160 SLOC (Ian Piumarta). You mix Open source and Free software. Go have a real degree first (real science like physics), then maybe go back to computing. Cannot catch up with the 70s!
    - KirinDave 10y ago
      No one cares about Squeak anymore. We have browsers.
      - pierre_d528 10y ago
        Average web page is > 2MB[1] Lol... you are really clueless. [1]: https://www.soasta.com/blog/page-bloat-average-web-page-2-mb/ https://www.soasta.com/blog/page-bloat-average-web-page-2-mb...
        KirinDave 10y ago
        But that's mostly raster images and fonts. Code density is quite low, and JavaScript takes many cues from SmallTalk. "Lol." A technical term.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      My physics diploma says that you're not contributing any useful arguments to the discussion at hand.
      - pierre_d528 10y ago
        Your contribution is very interesting : it shows how little a diploma (a.k.a. "education") has to do with any kind of ability to produce anything useful. http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/475.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/475.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/538.abstract http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/538.abstract http://ner.sagepub.com/content/224/1/R29.abstract http://ner.sagepub.com/content/224/1/R29.abstract https://newrepublic.com/article/124943/america-overeducation-problem https://newrepublic.com/article/124943/america-overeducation... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304393294900477 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/03043932949... https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/lpritch/Education%20-%20docs/ED%20-%20Econ%20Growth,%20impact/where%20has%20all%20the%20education%20gone.pdf https://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/lpritch/Education%20-%20docs/... http://repec.iza.org/dp5401.pdf http://repec.iza.org/dp5401.pdf http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2013/December/Differences-in-students-GCSE-scores-owe-more-to-genetics-than-environment.aspx http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2013/December/Differ... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289605001078 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289605... https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2862754 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2862754 http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-going-broke-by-degree/#61726d15618a http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-goi... https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_large_numbers_of_college_students_don_t_learn_much https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_l... https://www.amazon.com/Academically-Adrift-Limited-Learning-Campuses/dp/0226028569 https://www.amazon.com/Academically-Adrift-Limited-Learning-... http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/21-myths-that-undermine-educational-effectiveness/ http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/21-myths-th... http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/06/federal-student-loan-programs-subsidize-waste-and-redistribution-to-the-wealthy/#581f3406fbcc http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/05/06/federal-stud... http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus-on-the-brain-training-industry-from-the-scientific-community-2/ http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus... http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-going-broke-by-degree/#7a41f9f3618a http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2016/11/01/are-we-still-goi... https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-12-31/research-prowess-of-u-s-colleges-is-exaggerated https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-12-31/research-... http://economics.mit.edu/files/10414 http://economics.mit.edu/files/10414 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040162505000235 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040162505... http://www.nber.org/papers/w18315 http://www.nber.org/papers/w18315 http://www.nber.org/papers/w19895 http://www.nber.org/papers/w19895 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/upshot/how-to-improve-graduation-rates-at-community-colleges.html?_r= http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/upshot/how-to-improve-grad... http://hechingerreport.org/how-often-do-community-college-students-who-get-transfer-get-bachelors-degrees/ http://hechingerreport.org/how-often-do-community-college-st... https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40 http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i... http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/05/28/half-of-college-grads-are-working-jobs-that-dont-require-a-degree/#76325ab310bb http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/05/28/half-of-co...
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Freedom is wonderful, but we have a saying in the USA (from a famous court case): the rich as well as the poor are free to sleep under bridges. The meaning of this is that freedom without good resources is not actually that great. After all, you could be completely free from Google and every other technological capitalist firm right now by throwing away your computer, phone and so on, and returning to ink and paper for your communication requirements. But of course you don't want to do that because it would entail a terrible loss of convenience, and every time you needed some information you would be forced to make a trip to the library or bookstore, or ask someone else to find the information for you etc. etc.. There is nothing ethically or psychologically bad about such a life - many of us are old enough to remember growing up that way - but it will put you at a severe economic and social disadvantage compared to virtually all of your peers. In theory, I agree with you (and I mean that on many levels; I'm a devoted fan of Michel Foucault, for example). But I cannot eat theory, even if you consider it to be delicious cake.
  - pierre_d528 10y ago
    Here is something wonderfully tangible: Alan Kay and a couple of friends built an entire system in 2.8MB in 1998[1]. You can actually DO stuff with these techs: "How Smalltalk Enables World Record Breaking Performance"[2] Guys behind V8 are smalltalkers. Nothing "theoretical" here, just science. I do not care about pompous theory. For example, I do not believe in real numbers. I let "theory" to poets and most academics. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUud1gcbS9k [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9dgLW9m7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9dgLW9m7w
    - anigbrowl 10y ago
      Many people here are politely explaining to you that these tools have great intentions but that they are poorly designed, and you respond with irrelevant assertions about performance records. It is as if people tell you that a velo is unsuitable for construction work, and you respond with praise of Romain Bardet. This discussion is about 'Free, Decentralized, Ethical Internet built on Solidarity.' Who cares about record-breaking Smalltalk performance? It is irrelevant. None of your contributions to this discussion have added anything of value.