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Most Germans were unaware of the camps until after the war. If we ever reimplement them, it won't be public. We won't (don't) know.

by nether 10y ago

burkaman 10y ago
I have generally heard that isn't true, and it does seem hard to believe the government could hide such an enormous undertaking. People were disappearing, thousands employed to build and staff camps, lots of international coverage, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust#The_Holocaust:_What_the_average_Germans_knew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau... These days there would be satellite pictures of camps, cell phone videos of most of the internment process, reporters and protesters all over the place, etc. It would be impossible to hide.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  It's not that hard to imagine, especially in sparsely populated corners of the world. Take this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article/610145 http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article... Truth? Fiction? If true, would anyone risk precious trade with China over it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China#Allegations_of_organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China... Maybe they've killed tens of thousands of people, maybe not? Doesn't seem to inspire many Western journalists to look for the truth, it's much easier to write another listicle about shiny malls in Shanghai after all. Edit: To be clear, my implication is not that Germans didn't know about the holocaust. Rather, there was probably lots of hearsay and people conveniently ignored it.
  - burkaman 10y ago
    That's not a very good comparison. 60,000 people being executed over 6 years is very different from rounding up 3 million people, alive, in some camps. China also has no free press and a heavily censored internet. Building huge camps and housing millions of people is simply impossible to do in secret.
    - lodi 10y ago
      There's three different categories here: 1) People that didn't know there were internment/concentration camps at all. 2) People that knew there were camps, but didn't know about the murder/torture/etc. They earnestly believed these camps were for detaining prisoners, like the American camps. 3) People that knew everything. Given that Americans knew about their own camps--and did nothing--I'm inclined to believe that #2 was by far the largest group, while #3 was relatively small. Also, keep in mind that censored internet is one thing, no internet and fascist death squads keeping everyone in line is an entirely different level of suppression of free speech.
      - burkaman 10y ago
        Ok, sure, that's possible. I misunderstood what you meant by "unaware of the camps". Still, a lot of historians disagree with you. The most blunt quote in the Wikipedia article I linked is "General information concerning the mass murder of Jews was widespread in the German population."

Most Germans were unaware of the camps until after the war. If we ever reimplement them, it won't be public. We won't (don't) know.

by nether 10y ago

Most Germans were unaware of the camps until after the war. If we ever reimplement them, it won't be public. We won't (don't) know.

burkaman 10y ago

I have generally heard that isn't true, and it does seem hard to believe the government could hide such an enormous undertaking. People were disappearing, thousands employed to build and staff camps, lots of international coverage, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust#The_Holocaust:_What_the_average_Germans_knew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau... These days there would be satellite pictures of camps, cell phone videos of most of the internment process, reporters and protesters all over the place, etc. It would be impossible to hide.

gurkendoktor 10y ago
It's not that hard to imagine, especially in sparsely populated corners of the world. Take this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article/610145 http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article... Truth? Fiction? If true, would anyone risk precious trade with China over it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China#Allegations_of_organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China... Maybe they've killed tens of thousands of people, maybe not? Doesn't seem to inspire many Western journalists to look for the truth, it's much easier to write another listicle about shiny malls in Shanghai after all. Edit: To be clear, my implication is not that Germans didn't know about the holocaust. Rather, there was probably lots of hearsay and people conveniently ignored it.
- burkaman 10y ago
  That's not a very good comparison. 60,000 people being executed over 6 years is very different from rounding up 3 million people, alive, in some camps. China also has no free press and a heavily censored internet. Building huge camps and housing millions of people is simply impossible to do in secret.
  - lodi 10y ago
    There's three different categories here: 1) People that didn't know there were internment/concentration camps at all. 2) People that knew there were camps, but didn't know about the murder/torture/etc. They earnestly believed these camps were for detaining prisoners, like the American camps. 3) People that knew everything. Given that Americans knew about their own camps--and did nothing--I'm inclined to believe that #2 was by far the largest group, while #3 was relatively small. Also, keep in mind that censored internet is one thing, no internet and fascist death squads keeping everyone in line is an entirely different level of suppression of free speech.
    - burkaman 10y ago
      Ok, sure, that's possible. I misunderstood what you meant by "unaware of the camps". Still, a lot of historians disagree with you. The most blunt quote in the Wikipedia article I linked is "General information concerning the mass murder of Jews was widespread in the German population."