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As someone whose family ancestors were kidnapped to the US and forced to engage in unpaid labor I have to say this country never cared about freedom and human r

As someone whose family ancestors were kidnapped to the US and forced to engage in unpaid labor I have to say this country never cared about freedom and human rights. It's all part of the national story designed to make the occupants of this country view themselves as better than the rest of the world.

droopyEyelids 10y ago
Distorted exaggeration disrespects everyone. This country has struggled with issues of freedom and human rights, but it has made significant strides, and we should use them as an example of what to work for and what can be achieved.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- alexhawdon 10y ago
  They aren't really 'human rights' until they are applied to all humans. They're merely 'American Rights'.
- mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
  Did you just call slavery in the US a "distorted exaggeration"?
0xfeba 10y ago
Yup. It's a facade. Especially during the Carter, Nixon, HW Bush, etc. eras, culminating in Bush Jr's "They hate us for our Freedoms" speech after 9/11. No, they hate us for our overly zealous anti-communism that drove us to forcefully prop up dictatorships/extremist groups (Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda, etc.), and then vacate when things went sour. Time and time, and time again we did this in the past 60 years, and it's just now coming back to bite us. One of the few things I look forward to in a Trump administration is isolationism, but his cabinet is both extremely anti-communist and anti-Muslim, so it looks like it's just going to be Carter/Nixon/Truman bullshit all over again.
- turar 10y ago
  > No, they hate us for our overly zealous anti-communism that drove us to forcefully prop up dictatorships/extremist groups (Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda, etc.), and then vacate when things went sour. I thought this contrast between death of Castro and Saudi Arabian king was an insightful example earlier this week: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/5h2jf7/guardian_reader_sums_up_the_controversy_about/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/5h2jf7...
- Turing_Machine 10y ago
  Communists of various stripes murdered somewhere around 100 million people in the last century. What, exactly, counts as "overly zealous" in that context?
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Counter-examples abound: the US actively suppressed democracy in Latin America and elsewhere when it didn't suit American business interests, hence Guatemala. Likewise, a great number of deaths at the hand of Communist leaders were due to utter incompetence and mismanagement, such as in China's Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. My rule of thumb is that it's basically a bad thing when somebody dies who shouldn't have (if people were fair and compassionate).
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      > My rule of thumb is that it's basically a bad thing when somebody dies who shouldn't have (if people were fair and compassionate). OK. Then it's a worse thing when more people die who shouldn't have, right?
      - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
        Entirely. In the vast histories of famines, for example, there were far more times where food was available and denied to the desperate, than there have been times where there has not been enough food for everybody. During the food cost crisis that preceded the Arab Spring, I and everyone around me in comfortable America ate quite well. If we as a species cared for every human life, such suffering would have been avoided. "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" -Matthew, 25:40
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
A Belgian writer once remarked to me that he was surprised when he moved to the United States. Compared to everywhere else, Americans were so angry at each other all the time. He postulated that because America was founded on two great crimes - genocide and slavery - and was instilled with the myth that rugged individualism creates success, generations of Americans have been screwed out of the opportunity that they are led to believe is their own, all while blaming themselves for all their misfortune, or others for stealing their opportunity, hence the anger. I don't know if that cultural trait will ever depart the American psyche.
CWuestefeld 10y ago
As someone whose American ancestors fought in a war to free your ancestors, I think you're painting with far too broad a brush.
- andars 10y ago
  That wasn't the purpose of the war. Here's Lincoln, 1862: "I would save the Union. … If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it."
  - CWuestefeld 10y ago
    That only tells us Lincoln's stated values. He doesn't get to dictate the motives of the entire country. I don't think you can legitimately claim that there wasn't a real ideological abolitionist movement, and that many people fought for it.

droopyEyelids 10y ago

Distorted exaggeration disrespects everyone. This country has struggled with issues of freedom and human rights, but it has made significant strides, and we should use them as an example of what to work for and what can be achieved.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
alexhawdon 10y ago
They aren't really 'human rights' until they are applied to all humans. They're merely 'American Rights'.
mrgoldenbrown 10y ago
Did you just call slavery in the US a "distorted exaggeration"?

0xfeba 10y ago

Yup. It's a facade. Especially during the Carter, Nixon, HW Bush, etc. eras, culminating in Bush Jr's "They hate us for our Freedoms" speech after 9/11. No, they hate us for our overly zealous anti-communism that drove us to forcefully prop up dictatorships/extremist groups (Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda, etc.), and then vacate when things went sour. Time and time, and time again we did this in the past 60 years, and it's just now coming back to bite us. One of the few things I look forward to in a Trump administration is isolationism, but his cabinet is both extremely anti-communist and anti-Muslim, so it looks like it's just going to be Carter/Nixon/Truman bullshit all over again.

turar 10y ago
> No, they hate us for our overly zealous anti-communism that drove us to forcefully prop up dictatorships/extremist groups (Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda, etc.), and then vacate when things went sour. I thought this contrast between death of Castro and Saudi Arabian king was an insightful example earlier this week: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/5h2jf7/guardian_reader_sums_up_the_controversy_about/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/5h2jf7...
Turing_Machine 10y ago
Communists of various stripes murdered somewhere around 100 million people in the last century. What, exactly, counts as "overly zealous" in that context?
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Counter-examples abound: the US actively suppressed democracy in Latin America and elsewhere when it didn't suit American business interests, hence Guatemala. Likewise, a great number of deaths at the hand of Communist leaders were due to utter incompetence and mismanagement, such as in China's Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. My rule of thumb is that it's basically a bad thing when somebody dies who shouldn't have (if people were fair and compassionate).
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    > My rule of thumb is that it's basically a bad thing when somebody dies who shouldn't have (if people were fair and compassionate). OK. Then it's a worse thing when more people die who shouldn't have, right?
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      Entirely. In the vast histories of famines, for example, there were far more times where food was available and denied to the desperate, than there have been times where there has not been enough food for everybody. During the food cost crisis that preceded the Arab Spring, I and everyone around me in comfortable America ate quite well. If we as a species cared for every human life, such suffering would have been avoided. "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" -Matthew, 25:40

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

A Belgian writer once remarked to me that he was surprised when he moved to the United States. Compared to everywhere else, Americans were so angry at each other all the time. He postulated that because America was founded on two great crimes - genocide and slavery - and was instilled with the myth that rugged individualism creates success, generations of Americans have been screwed out of the opportunity that they are led to believe is their own, all while blaming themselves for all their misfortune, or others for stealing their opportunity, hence the anger. I don't know if that cultural trait will ever depart the American psyche.

CWuestefeld 10y ago

As someone whose American ancestors fought in a war to free your ancestors, I think you're painting with far too broad a brush.

andars 10y ago
That wasn't the purpose of the war. Here's Lincoln, 1862: "I would save the Union. … If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it."
- CWuestefeld 10y ago
  That only tells us Lincoln's stated values. He doesn't get to dictate the motives of the entire country. I don't think you can legitimately claim that there wasn't a real ideological abolitionist movement, and that many people fought for it.