5 ms·

So, this guy from Austria says Nelson Mandela is one of his idols?! Freedom, Peace, Humanity.... Let's quote Wikipedia: " On December 13, 2005, Williams was

by brakmic 10y ago

So, this guy from Austria says Nelson Mandela is one of his idols?! Freedom, Peace, Humanity.... Let's quote Wikipedia: " On December 13, 2005, Williams was executed by lethal injection after clemency and a four-week stay of execution were both rejected by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, amid debate over the death penalty. Williams was the second inmate in California to be executed in 2005. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams Usually, we call this Hypocrisy.

blowski 10y ago
I don't know the details of the case, but I do know that politicians have to make a lot of difficult decisions based on more than their own personal opinions.
andy_ppp 10y ago
Come on man, the whole piece is about having humility. The Wikipedia article says this guy was one of the leaders of the Westside Crips; I don't feel sorry for him and can see why he wasn't granted clemency. I don't agree with the death penalty but it doesn't invalidate the sentiment in the article.
whowalrus 10y ago
I do not agree with the death penalty either, but your logic seems flawed to me. I don't have to share ALL the morals/ethics/worldviews that my heroes have. Now if he came out against death penalty at some point and then reversed his stance, your accusation of hypocrisy would be accurate. Edit: I was wrong about what hypocrisy meant - please see humanrebar's reply below.
- paublyrne 10y ago
  Would that not be changing his mind about something, rather than hypocrisy, which is saying one thing but doing another.
  - whowalrus 10y ago
    Agreed, humanrebar explained it well!
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > Now if he came out against death penalty at some point and then reversed his stance, your accusation of hypocrisy would be accurate. No, changing your mind isn't hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is saying the rules don't apply to you somehow. If he executed someone with no trial and said it didn't count because it was somehow for the greater good, he would be a hypocrite. If we don't leave people room to change their minds, we don't leave them room to grow. I'd rather be in a world where people learn lessons.
  - whowalrus 10y ago
    I stand corrected.
  - brakmic 10y ago
    Well, executing a human being shrinks "the room for improvement". Permanently.
    - humanrebar 10y ago
      Yep. That's why they have due process and fair trials in California. At least according to the CA and US high courts. Some people say that any execution is immoral, and there's a good argument there as well.
      - brakmic 10y ago
        A trial that could lead to a death penalty can never be "fair" because this kind of punishment leaves no room for re-socialization of the convict. There are certain rights that no punishment could ever take away from a human being. At least we have them here, in the EU.
afandian 10y ago
That seems a strange place to identify hypocrisy. Nelson Mandela wasn't afraid of killing people in the pursuit of perceived justice. Neither, it seems, was Arnold Schwarzenegger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe
- metafunctor 10y ago
  Ah, the greater good! It's always good to kill people if it's for the greater good.
  - GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
    So can you identify no situation in which killing someone is appropriate?
    - metafunctor 10y ago
      If you're asking if I think the death penalty is appropriate for a system of criminal justice, then no. I do not think there is ever a situation where that is appropriate. It is immoral. There are other situations where I think using deadly force is justified. Defending a country under military attack is one of these situations. The reason I posted that is that I don't think belief in the greater good is enough. Believing in the greater good brought us the holocaust, for example. It is simply not enough of a reason to kill people.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        > Believing in the greater good brought us the holocaust, for example. Please do more historical research. The Holocaust was not caused by seeking the greater good, but instead the greater evil. It was caused when massive numbers of people decided that rule by terror was not worth resisting as long as it did not touch them.
throwanem 10y ago
What's Austria got to do with it? Beethoven was Austrian, too.
- brakmic 10y ago
  Beethoven was German. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven
  - mkesper 10y ago
    Probably Mozart was meant.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Whoops, so he was; he died in Vienna but wasn't born there. What I get for commenting before coffee; thanks for the catch.
sergiotapia 10y ago
People are flawed - it's OK to admire certain qualities and scoff at other idiotic opinions they have.
TurboHaskal 10y ago
You need to read on Mandela's :)

by brakmic 10y ago

blowski 10y ago

I don't know the details of the case, but I do know that politicians have to make a lot of difficult decisions based on more than their own personal opinions.

andy_ppp 10y ago

Come on man, the whole piece is about having humility. The Wikipedia article says this guy was one of the leaders of the Westside Crips; I don't feel sorry for him and can see why he wasn't granted clemency. I don't agree with the death penalty but it doesn't invalidate the sentiment in the article.

whowalrus 10y ago

I do not agree with the death penalty either, but your logic seems flawed to me. I don't have to share ALL the morals/ethics/worldviews that my heroes have. Now if he came out against death penalty at some point and then reversed his stance, your accusation of hypocrisy would be accurate. Edit: I was wrong about what hypocrisy meant - please see humanrebar's reply below.

paublyrne 10y ago
Would that not be changing his mind about something, rather than hypocrisy, which is saying one thing but doing another.
- whowalrus 10y ago
  Agreed, humanrebar explained it well!
humanrebar 10y ago
> Now if he came out against death penalty at some point and then reversed his stance, your accusation of hypocrisy would be accurate. No, changing your mind isn't hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is saying the rules don't apply to you somehow. If he executed someone with no trial and said it didn't count because it was somehow for the greater good, he would be a hypocrite. If we don't leave people room to change their minds, we don't leave them room to grow. I'd rather be in a world where people learn lessons.
- whowalrus 10y ago
  I stand corrected.
- brakmic 10y ago
  Well, executing a human being shrinks "the room for improvement". Permanently.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    Yep. That's why they have due process and fair trials in California. At least according to the CA and US high courts. Some people say that any execution is immoral, and there's a good argument there as well.
    - brakmic 10y ago
      A trial that could lead to a death penalty can never be "fair" because this kind of punishment leaves no room for re-socialization of the convict. There are certain rights that no punishment could ever take away from a human being. At least we have them here, in the EU.

afandian 10y ago

That seems a strange place to identify hypocrisy. Nelson Mandela wasn't afraid of killing people in the pursuit of perceived justice. Neither, it seems, was Arnold Schwarzenegger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

metafunctor 10y ago
Ah, the greater good! It's always good to kill people if it's for the greater good.
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
  So can you identify no situation in which killing someone is appropriate?
  - metafunctor 10y ago
    If you're asking if I think the death penalty is appropriate for a system of criminal justice, then no. I do not think there is ever a situation where that is appropriate. It is immoral. There are other situations where I think using deadly force is justified. Defending a country under military attack is one of these situations. The reason I posted that is that I don't think belief in the greater good is enough. Believing in the greater good brought us the holocaust, for example. It is simply not enough of a reason to kill people.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      > Believing in the greater good brought us the holocaust, for example. Please do more historical research. The Holocaust was not caused by seeking the greater good, but instead the greater evil. It was caused when massive numbers of people decided that rule by terror was not worth resisting as long as it did not touch them.

throwanem 10y ago

What's Austria got to do with it? Beethoven was Austrian, too.

brakmic 10y ago
Beethoven was German. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven
- mkesper 10y ago
  Probably Mozart was meant.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Whoops, so he was; he died in Vienna but wasn't born there. What I get for commenting before coffee; thanks for the catch.

sergiotapia 10y ago

People are flawed - it's OK to admire certain qualities and scoff at other idiotic opinions they have.

TurboHaskal 10y ago

You need to read on Mandela's :)