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> People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work ... If people are actively demotivated by seeing others idle and surviving, who cares? Provide

> People feel a natural obligation to be rewarded for their work ... If people are actively demotivated by seeing others idle and surviving, who cares? Provided that we as a society can afford basic income (including after it's been established and it's having various impacts on the workforce), it's no loss if people stop working. And there's only so much basic income could ever give you; it'll make the necessities of life free (or rather paid for), but if you want things beyond necessities (including any positional good), you'd still want to look for work. > Is a safety net nice? ... If we can afford to provide a basic income, you don't need to work -- unless the economy goes so pear-shaped that we stop being able to afford a basic income. (And this seems unlikely, since automated factories won't be offered a basic income. If anything, basic income might increase consumer demand...) > The idea of giving people a flat income ... I'd emphasize that this income will grow if you work -- and that it won't be enough to buy positional goods, by definition. You can keep body and soul together on a basic income, but to live better you'll have to find a way to engage with the economy. (And the presence of a hammock-grade safety net will give you more options, not fewer. Live on oatmeal and vegetables, and buy stock with your food savings; or work for years on a project that might or might not pay off.) > I'm not sure what you mean by this ... "Made to do work" could mean any number of things. Tribal warfare, hunting, gathering, and social climbing are certainly things humanity has evolved to do; subsistence farming, artisanal crafts, and management are close enough that we're pretty good at them; but factory work, we're just plain not adapted to. Keeping strict schedules, doing small parts of a large whole, and repeating a single task for a long period of time: these are learned skills at best for humanity, and that's why such jobs get automated. > Some people feel like they wouldn't be fulfilling their purpose ... They can find jobs and keep working. UBI isn't the end of employment, just the provision of support. Think of it as reverting to the economic structure of the classical world or the American South, except that this time the only slaves are robots.

nercht12 10y ago
I guess our ideas of how it would be implemented are different. Let's consider it from a practical perspective. What's the basic level of income? Right now, minimum wage helps some people (where cost of living is low) and not others (where cost of living is high), so asking this quantitatively, how much would you propose basic income be, assuming the dollar stays put? Of course, we have to get Congress to even pass such measures in a way that actually helps society, but let's ignore the government problem for our theorizing. Second, what do you project would be future salaries? I know, that's very difficult to say, but let's toy with the idea since it's important that such salaries have an impact on whether people actually step out into the workplace... or if the sorts of jobs available are even something they can do. Third, exactly where does this money come from? The rich have money, but it's awfully hard to get them to part with it. They're usually crafty enough to manipulate the system. The government can't keep printing money (without taking it out) because that makes it worthless. Money doesn't just magically appear when the economy "gets going". Let's not assume imports are going to decrease (at least not for this theorizing, even if Trump gets his way), or at least we should pretend that imports and exports balance out. I say this assuming that we might apply Basic Income at a global level, at which point "import" and "export" become meaningless. Money can't just cycle because the fact is, some people are in control of the resource supply and others aren't. On a small, small level, capitalism is like this: If we have two people, Mr A and Mr B, and Mr A has the resource supply, the way Mr B gets anything is if he works for Mr A, and Mr A pays him for the resources. Basic Income at this level would be taking from Mr A to give to Mr B some small, but significant amount, for just existing. Does Mr A get a stipend/basic income? And supposing Mr B works more. I wonder at what point would Mr B become like Mr A where he gets taxed more. Already we've seen companies move their headquarters to places like Singapore to avoid the heavy corporate taxing. I have no doubt that the rich (who can afford to move) will be glad to leave this country to find havens where their wealth is unaffected but from which they can still suck the wealth of other nations. Taxing laws here are critical because there are usually loopholes to get around it. Fourth, how would this look with immigration? Seems - just from my observations - a number of liberals would like both immigration and things like Basic Income. These ideas seem opposed to me, since immigration doesn't necessarily bring much wealth, as it's often the poor who immigrate (assuming no wars or famine and such that drive people from their homeland, and those could be factored in, at least with Basic Income on a national scale). (I'm ignoring here, the fraction of people who immigrate just 'cause they like the country). I await your thoughts.

nercht12 10y ago

I guess our ideas of how it would be implemented are different. Let's consider it from a practical perspective. What's the basic level of income? Right now, minimum wage helps some people (where cost of living is low) and not others (where cost of living is high), so asking this quantitatively, how much would you propose basic income be, assuming the dollar stays put? Of course, we have to get Congress to even pass such measures in a way that actually helps society, but let's ignore the government problem for our theorizing. Second, what do you project would be future salaries? I know, that's very difficult to say, but let's toy with the idea since it's important that such salaries have an impact on whether people actually step out into the workplace... or if the sorts of jobs available are even something they can do. Third, exactly where does this money come from? The rich have money, but it's awfully hard to get them to part with it. They're usually crafty enough to manipulate the system. The government can't keep printing money (without taking it out) because that makes it worthless. Money doesn't just magically appear when the economy "gets going". Let's not assume imports are going to decrease (at least not for this theorizing, even if Trump gets his way), or at least we should pretend that imports and exports balance out. I say this assuming that we might apply Basic Income at a global level, at which point "import" and "export" become meaningless. Money can't just cycle because the fact is, some people are in control of the resource supply and others aren't. On a small, small level, capitalism is like this: If we have two people, Mr A and Mr B, and Mr A has the resource supply, the way Mr B gets anything is if he works for Mr A, and Mr A pays him for the resources. Basic Income at this level would be taking from Mr A to give to Mr B some small, but significant amount, for just existing. Does Mr A get a stipend/basic income? And supposing Mr B works more. I wonder at what point would Mr B become like Mr A where he gets taxed more. Already we've seen companies move their headquarters to places like Singapore to avoid the heavy corporate taxing. I have no doubt that the rich (who can afford to move) will be glad to leave this country to find havens where their wealth is unaffected but from which they can still suck the wealth of other nations. Taxing laws here are critical because there are usually loopholes to get around it. Fourth, how would this look with immigration? Seems - just from my observations - a number of liberals would like both immigration and things like Basic Income. These ideas seem opposed to me, since immigration doesn't necessarily bring much wealth, as it's often the poor who immigrate (assuming no wars or famine and such that drive people from their homeland, and those could be factored in, at least with Basic Income on a national scale). (I'm ignoring here, the fraction of people who immigrate just 'cause they like the country). I await your thoughts.