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All humans have a psychological need to be needed. The current way to best feel this is to provide income for yourself and your family through work, and provide

All humans have a psychological need to be needed. The current way to best feel this is to provide income for yourself and your family through work, and provide a service for your employer. This is extremely satisfying for a majority of people. Take away work and these two things collapse. To get UBI to work, we need a new way for people to feel needed.

hood_syntax 10y ago
I disagree entirely that work is the best way to feel needed, and that feeling needed is necessary. I work because I have to, not because I care about working. If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I would spend time on personal projects and enjoying my life with my friends. Relationships are far better than work for "feeling needed". To be honest though, I don't care about being needed. I don't need to exist. I like existing, and I don't want that to change any time soon, but not being needed doesn't affect my enjoyment. I like when my existence is appreciated by someone else, but my happiness and mental wellbeing is not predicated on that.
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Yep, +1000. This is apparently very hard to grasp for some, or they just really love working (which I have my own doubts about). It's crazy to me that in this age of bounty, everyone is positively required to sell at least 40 hours per week of their time or face social exile, starvation, homelessness, etc. I think another aspect of it is that people want it to feel fair, and that's a complicated thing. It doesn't take much hunting to find videos of someone chastising another customer at Walmart for paying with a government assistance card. We have this strange animosity toward anyone we deem doesn't work as hard as we do for the same result. Well, it's literally true that some people in this country make 1000x what others make while working less hours, doing less "hard" labor. Personally, construction, food service, mechanical maintenance, etc work much harder than I do, even though they might not have a clue how to do what I do (I would also likely suck at their job initially).
- gremlinsinc 10y ago
  I love my work, and hanging out w/ the other coders on slack, but I would prefer not being forced to work, I'd much rather it be a 'choice' not something thrust upon me, or that I could live off 20 hours per week and spend the other 20 working on prototypes for web and mobile apps.
- RandomOpinion 10y ago
  >I like when my existence is appreciated by someone else, but my happiness and mental wellbeing is not predicated on that. You might believe that but a lot of history and medical studies on retirees says otherwise. http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20130813-the-dark-side-of-the-golden-years http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20130813-the-dark-side-of-t... https://hbr.org/2016/10/youre-likely-to-live-longer-if-you-retire-after-65 https://hbr.org/2016/10/youre-likely-to-live-longer-if-you-r... http://www.reviewjournal.com/life/transition-retirement-can-leave-people-feeling-unmoored http://www.reviewjournal.com/life/transition-retirement-can-...
  - sean_patel 10y ago
    From the BBC article you've linked to > There are a number of reasons why health declines after retirement, said Dave, but, mental and social stimulation are a large factor. For many people, work is where they are the most social and do the most physical activity. When that core social network is removed, health declines. Specifically, this. > For many people, work is where they are the most social and do the most physical activity. When that core social network is removed, health declines. By that notion, are all young Remote workers -- think 99% of the Wordpress core team -- declining in health and dying? I'm not buying this.
    - mistermann 10y ago
      They're needed by their job, and their friends, society. For a lot of people, when they retire, they don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. Maybe they don't have many personal friends. Maybe they don't have a strong marriage, or their spouse passed, or they never married. Maybe their children have moved away, and are so busy with their exciting lives, it seems they never have time for anything more than the obligatory weekly skype session. This can make your health decline.
      - sean_patel 10y ago
        Thank you, Sir. I will keep this in mind as I age...
- Inconel 10y ago
  I understand what you’re saying but I wouldn’t completely dismiss the psychological effect that a sense of feeling needed or the pride you can gain from work has on many people. The sense of being needed may not be important to you, and to be clear I make no negative judgement about that, in fact I’m glad to hear from anyone whose own self worth or happiness isn’t tied to their job as this probably leads to much richer lives, but for many people this doesn’t hold true. I often see the sentiment shared on HN that if posters here didn’t have to work for a living they would be equally or more fulfilled working on their own projects or spending more time with friends/family, but in some ways I think this feeling at least partially correlates with intelligence, creativity, ambition, or simply being a confident well adjusted adult. I definitely get the impression that HN is filled with people on the higher end of the intelligence/creativity/entrepreneurial spectrum and that might be resulting in a particular narrative that doesn’t always hold true for the rest of us. I would say that I definitely fall into the very bottom portion of intelligence/creativity among the readership here. I don’t really have much to contribute to this community beyond personal anecdotes, and I’m frequently in awe of the projects and overall knowledge I see on display here. As someone who isn’t smart or creative, never did well in school and has no formal education beyond high school, grew up in poverty and has been homeless for extended periods (12 months or more) twice in my life, doesn’t have a whole lot of self confidence or things to be proud of, my work (which involves machining and precision manufacturing) is pretty much the main thing that gives me a sense of self worth. For many people that statement may seem sad or somewhat pathetic, but it’s honestly how I feel. I live in LA county, not exactly a low CoL area, and as a single person without dependents I can very comfortably survive on $1100-$1200 per month. BI could easily fulfill my financial needs but it wouldn’t do much to provide for the other things that my work provides for me, namely the sense of purpose and pride it gives me. I understand that BI doesn’t mean the end or work, or that people wouldn’t be allowed to work or seek out volunteer opportunities, so my comment isn’t a general critique of BI, particularly as the more I learn about it, increasingly from HN, the more optimistic and supportive I become of it, but a realization that while I think it’s effects would be very positive overall, I don’t think it would solve all of our problems. As a society we will still need to find ways to make people feel wanted. And as of now for many of us work is what fulfills that role.
  - 10y ago
int_19h 10y ago
There are numerous ways to satisfy one's urge to "feel needed". To give two very different examples, volunteering for various projects (trust me, there's a lot of stuff that needs doing), and contributing to open source.
fzzzy 10y ago
Kids need parents.
- gremlinsinc 10y ago
  Amen to this. We need basic income if for no other reason than to bring one parent home, I don't care if it's the father or mother, there should always be a parent available and at home.
  - m_fayer 10y ago
    I very strongly agree. In the very much socially just rush to get women in the workforce we've lost sight of the damage done to children by separation from their parents, and the damage done to relationships by the staggering workload of managing children and a household with both partners working full-time. I would very much love being able to fluidly transition between periods of being a house-husband and employment, and my girlfriend feels likewise.
eridius 10y ago
Basic Income does not mean people cannot work. What it does mean is people can choose to work at whatever brings them joy, rather than working at whatever job is available to have the money to meet basic necessities. And for people who don't actually want to work, they have that option too.
JDiculous 10y ago
One can choose to work on whatever they want, however they want. Believe it or not, most people have an innate desire to want to contribute to society and/or improve/create things. Basic income is not communism, you'll still get compensated for doing paid work. As long as that incentive to make money is there, there will always be people working.

hood_syntax 10y ago

I disagree entirely that work is the best way to feel needed, and that feeling needed is necessary. I work because I have to, not because I care about working. If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I would spend time on personal projects and enjoying my life with my friends. Relationships are far better than work for "feeling needed". To be honest though, I don't care about being needed. I don't need to exist. I like existing, and I don't want that to change any time soon, but not being needed doesn't affect my enjoyment. I like when my existence is appreciated by someone else, but my happiness and mental wellbeing is not predicated on that.

seanp2k2 10y ago
Yep, +1000. This is apparently very hard to grasp for some, or they just really love working (which I have my own doubts about). It's crazy to me that in this age of bounty, everyone is positively required to sell at least 40 hours per week of their time or face social exile, starvation, homelessness, etc. I think another aspect of it is that people want it to feel fair, and that's a complicated thing. It doesn't take much hunting to find videos of someone chastising another customer at Walmart for paying with a government assistance card. We have this strange animosity toward anyone we deem doesn't work as hard as we do for the same result. Well, it's literally true that some people in this country make 1000x what others make while working less hours, doing less "hard" labor. Personally, construction, food service, mechanical maintenance, etc work much harder than I do, even though they might not have a clue how to do what I do (I would also likely suck at their job initially).
gremlinsinc 10y ago
I love my work, and hanging out w/ the other coders on slack, but I would prefer not being forced to work, I'd much rather it be a 'choice' not something thrust upon me, or that I could live off 20 hours per week and spend the other 20 working on prototypes for web and mobile apps.
RandomOpinion 10y ago
>I like when my existence is appreciated by someone else, but my happiness and mental wellbeing is not predicated on that. You might believe that but a lot of history and medical studies on retirees says otherwise. http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20130813-the-dark-side-of-the-golden-years http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20130813-the-dark-side-of-t... https://hbr.org/2016/10/youre-likely-to-live-longer-if-you-retire-after-65 https://hbr.org/2016/10/youre-likely-to-live-longer-if-you-r... http://www.reviewjournal.com/life/transition-retirement-can-leave-people-feeling-unmoored http://www.reviewjournal.com/life/transition-retirement-can-...
- sean_patel 10y ago
  From the BBC article you've linked to > There are a number of reasons why health declines after retirement, said Dave, but, mental and social stimulation are a large factor. For many people, work is where they are the most social and do the most physical activity. When that core social network is removed, health declines. Specifically, this. > For many people, work is where they are the most social and do the most physical activity. When that core social network is removed, health declines. By that notion, are all young Remote workers -- think 99% of the Wordpress core team -- declining in health and dying? I'm not buying this.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    They're needed by their job, and their friends, society. For a lot of people, when they retire, they don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. Maybe they don't have many personal friends. Maybe they don't have a strong marriage, or their spouse passed, or they never married. Maybe their children have moved away, and are so busy with their exciting lives, it seems they never have time for anything more than the obligatory weekly skype session. This can make your health decline.
    - sean_patel 10y ago
      Thank you, Sir. I will keep this in mind as I age...
Inconel 10y ago
I understand what you’re saying but I wouldn’t completely dismiss the psychological effect that a sense of feeling needed or the pride you can gain from work has on many people. The sense of being needed may not be important to you, and to be clear I make no negative judgement about that, in fact I’m glad to hear from anyone whose own self worth or happiness isn’t tied to their job as this probably leads to much richer lives, but for many people this doesn’t hold true. I often see the sentiment shared on HN that if posters here didn’t have to work for a living they would be equally or more fulfilled working on their own projects or spending more time with friends/family, but in some ways I think this feeling at least partially correlates with intelligence, creativity, ambition, or simply being a confident well adjusted adult. I definitely get the impression that HN is filled with people on the higher end of the intelligence/creativity/entrepreneurial spectrum and that might be resulting in a particular narrative that doesn’t always hold true for the rest of us. I would say that I definitely fall into the very bottom portion of intelligence/creativity among the readership here. I don’t really have much to contribute to this community beyond personal anecdotes, and I’m frequently in awe of the projects and overall knowledge I see on display here. As someone who isn’t smart or creative, never did well in school and has no formal education beyond high school, grew up in poverty and has been homeless for extended periods (12 months or more) twice in my life, doesn’t have a whole lot of self confidence or things to be proud of, my work (which involves machining and precision manufacturing) is pretty much the main thing that gives me a sense of self worth. For many people that statement may seem sad or somewhat pathetic, but it’s honestly how I feel. I live in LA county, not exactly a low CoL area, and as a single person without dependents I can very comfortably survive on $1100-$1200 per month. BI could easily fulfill my financial needs but it wouldn’t do much to provide for the other things that my work provides for me, namely the sense of purpose and pride it gives me. I understand that BI doesn’t mean the end or work, or that people wouldn’t be allowed to work or seek out volunteer opportunities, so my comment isn’t a general critique of BI, particularly as the more I learn about it, increasingly from HN, the more optimistic and supportive I become of it, but a realization that while I think it’s effects would be very positive overall, I don’t think it would solve all of our problems. As a society we will still need to find ways to make people feel wanted. And as of now for many of us work is what fulfills that role.
- 10y ago

int_19h 10y ago

There are numerous ways to satisfy one's urge to "feel needed". To give two very different examples, volunteering for various projects (trust me, there's a lot of stuff that needs doing), and contributing to open source.

fzzzy 10y ago

Kids need parents.

gremlinsinc 10y ago
Amen to this. We need basic income if for no other reason than to bring one parent home, I don't care if it's the father or mother, there should always be a parent available and at home.
- m_fayer 10y ago
  I very strongly agree. In the very much socially just rush to get women in the workforce we've lost sight of the damage done to children by separation from their parents, and the damage done to relationships by the staggering workload of managing children and a household with both partners working full-time. I would very much love being able to fluidly transition between periods of being a house-husband and employment, and my girlfriend feels likewise.

eridius 10y ago

Basic Income does not mean people cannot work. What it does mean is people can choose to work at whatever brings them joy, rather than working at whatever job is available to have the money to meet basic necessities. And for people who don't actually want to work, they have that option too.

JDiculous 10y ago

One can choose to work on whatever they want, however they want. Believe it or not, most people have an innate desire to want to contribute to society and/or improve/create things. Basic income is not communism, you'll still get compensated for doing paid work. As long as that incentive to make money is there, there will always be people working.