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"2009: A Colgan Air (Continental Connection) Dash-8 Q400 crashed outside Buffalo. Fifty people were killed, including the occupant of a house struck by the plan

"2009: A Colgan Air (Continental Connection) Dash-8 Q400 crashed outside Buffalo. Fifty people were killed, including the occupant of a house struck by the plane." "2006: Forty-nine people perished when a Comair (Delta Connection) regional jet crashed after attempting takeoff from a too-short runway." I'm not sure, maybe "major" has an official cut off number, but 49 or 50 doesn't seem "minor". It's a long way from 260, but it's far from 0.

gr3yh47 10y ago
They're counting Major US airlines, not including regional carriers FTA: >To be clear, there have been a handful of tragedies involving regional carriers and freighters [...] It’s the majors that set the standard, and it’s only fair that we measure from there.
el_benhameen 10y ago
Colgan and Comair aren't counted in the metric because they're regional, not major/legacy, airlines. They codeshare with the majors, but they're different organizations. Tangential: Frontline had a great episode on regional airlines' safety issues. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/
- js2 10y ago
  Tangent on the tagent: Phillip Greenspun touches on regional airline safety in this post comparing US to foreign airline safety - http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety If having a newbie in the right seat represents a challenge to safety, how do U.S. regional airlines manage? The U.S. regional airline is hiring pilots who are more experienced than those hired by foreign airlines (the U.S. regional F/O typically has been a flight instructor) but less experienced than those hired by a U.S. major airline. The answer is that U.S. regional airlines have an accident rate as much as 5-10 times that of U.S. major airlines. The culture is the same, but apparently there is no substitute for experience.
- mannykannot 10y ago
  From the comments: "The total number of departures is split just about evenly between the majors and the regionals. Yet the regionals, at least over the past several years, are carrying a much higher share of the accidents." This, I think, is the issue here. Some of the commentators have suggested (plausibly, I think) that the number of legs per day flown by regional aircrews may be an issue. We should probably also consider experience.
  - flashman 10y ago
    > the number of legs per day flown by regional aircrews may be an issue More take-offs and landings, more human and equipment fatigue, more opportunity for mistakes and breakages?
    - jcrawfordor 10y ago
      Most importantly the human fatigue. There have been some very alarming reports about regional airlines requiring their flight crew to work very long hours and scheduling them such that it's nearly impossible for them to get a proper night of sleep between working days. They're remaining compliant with the regulation, but in general getting as close as they can to violating. The major airlines, on the other hand, tend to have a more senior and thus more demanding flight crew (in terms of work life balance) so most flight crew have significantly more generous schedules.
- jcdavis 10y ago
  The regional/major distinction doesn't really exist from the perspective of most passengers, though. The article isn't wrong, but its certainly a little misleading
  - secabeen 10y ago
    I don't know about that. I can usually tell when I'm on a regional. The equipment is different, and the planes smaller. There may be one or two regional airlines that fly major-grade equipment like B737s, but my experience has been that they fly different equipment.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > They codeshare with the majors, but they're different organizations. Indeed they are organisationally different, but to the passenger holding a United through-ticket from Smallville to LA there's no difference except one part of the journey is on a 'tiddly airyplane'. If they're good enough to carry a major's flight code and livery and do the grunt work for feeding hubs for them, they're good enough to count in accident statistics. Would we accept lower security standards for, say, AWS if that was outsourced and was only 'branded' by Amazon?
  - el_benhameen 10y ago
    Oh, I don't disagree, and I get the jitters every time I get on one of those regional jets. I was just trying to clarify the parent's confusion.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    If you include them, the picture is still remarkably safe. How many years since a regional airline fatality?
    - zardeh 10y ago
      7
fossuser 10y ago
At least in the Buffalo case (crash was down the road from house I grew up in) the pilots didn't know what they were doing and it was a very cold night with ice on the plane. If I remember correctly they pulled back when flying too low and the plane dropped - was a freshman in college at the time though and don't really remember specifics. The recording recovered of the pilots didn't inspire confidence. This would play into the distinction the article makes about 'major' airlines and the culture differences probably.
rsync 10y ago
Children of this post are discussing/arguing about the regional vs. major distinction ... ok, fine ... But, in relation to: "Forty-nine people perished when a Comair (Delta Connection) regional jet crashed" I continue to read: "after attempting takeoff from a too-short runway." What the fuck ? How do you manage that ? That sounds like some pretty broken procedures there ...

gr3yh47 10y ago

They're counting Major US airlines, not including regional carriers FTA: >To be clear, there have been a handful of tragedies involving regional carriers and freighters [...] It’s the majors that set the standard, and it’s only fair that we measure from there.

el_benhameen 10y ago

Colgan and Comair aren't counted in the metric because they're regional, not major/legacy, airlines. They codeshare with the majors, but they're different organizations. Tangential: Frontline had a great episode on regional airlines' safety issues. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/

js2 10y ago
Tangent on the tagent: Phillip Greenspun touches on regional airline safety in this post comparing US to foreign airline safety - http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety If having a newbie in the right seat represents a challenge to safety, how do U.S. regional airlines manage? The U.S. regional airline is hiring pilots who are more experienced than those hired by foreign airlines (the U.S. regional F/O typically has been a flight instructor) but less experienced than those hired by a U.S. major airline. The answer is that U.S. regional airlines have an accident rate as much as 5-10 times that of U.S. major airlines. The culture is the same, but apparently there is no substitute for experience.
mannykannot 10y ago
From the comments: "The total number of departures is split just about evenly between the majors and the regionals. Yet the regionals, at least over the past several years, are carrying a much higher share of the accidents." This, I think, is the issue here. Some of the commentators have suggested (plausibly, I think) that the number of legs per day flown by regional aircrews may be an issue. We should probably also consider experience.
- flashman 10y ago
  > the number of legs per day flown by regional aircrews may be an issue More take-offs and landings, more human and equipment fatigue, more opportunity for mistakes and breakages?
  - jcrawfordor 10y ago
    Most importantly the human fatigue. There have been some very alarming reports about regional airlines requiring their flight crew to work very long hours and scheduling them such that it's nearly impossible for them to get a proper night of sleep between working days. They're remaining compliant with the regulation, but in general getting as close as they can to violating. The major airlines, on the other hand, tend to have a more senior and thus more demanding flight crew (in terms of work life balance) so most flight crew have significantly more generous schedules.
jcdavis 10y ago
The regional/major distinction doesn't really exist from the perspective of most passengers, though. The article isn't wrong, but its certainly a little misleading
- secabeen 10y ago
  I don't know about that. I can usually tell when I'm on a regional. The equipment is different, and the planes smaller. There may be one or two regional airlines that fly major-grade equipment like B737s, but my experience has been that they fly different equipment.
dingaling 10y ago
> They codeshare with the majors, but they're different organizations. Indeed they are organisationally different, but to the passenger holding a United through-ticket from Smallville to LA there's no difference except one part of the journey is on a 'tiddly airyplane'. If they're good enough to carry a major's flight code and livery and do the grunt work for feeding hubs for them, they're good enough to count in accident statistics. Would we accept lower security standards for, say, AWS if that was outsourced and was only 'branded' by Amazon?
- el_benhameen 10y ago
  Oh, I don't disagree, and I get the jitters every time I get on one of those regional jets. I was just trying to clarify the parent's confusion.
- mikeash 10y ago
  If you include them, the picture is still remarkably safe. How many years since a regional airline fatality?
  - zardeh 10y ago
    7

fossuser 10y ago

At least in the Buffalo case (crash was down the road from house I grew up in) the pilots didn't know what they were doing and it was a very cold night with ice on the plane. If I remember correctly they pulled back when flying too low and the plane dropped - was a freshman in college at the time though and don't really remember specifics. The recording recovered of the pilots didn't inspire confidence. This would play into the distinction the article makes about 'major' airlines and the culture differences probably.

rsync 10y ago

Children of this post are discussing/arguing about the regional vs. major distinction ... ok, fine ... But, in relation to: "Forty-nine people perished when a Comair (Delta Connection) regional jet crashed" I continue to read: "after attempting takeoff from a too-short runway." What the fuck ? How do you manage that ? That sounds like some pretty broken procedures there ...