9 ms·

What Former Employees Say ITT Tech Did to Scam Its Students

120 points by happy-go-lucky 10y ago

fecak 10y ago
>The rule set out in the ITT training materials instructs recruiters to call "a minimum of three times a day for the first three days." This was known as the 3x3 rule. That is bordering on harassment by most standards. Taking advantage of the underemployed has been happening for years, and in tech I remember when MCSE training programs were mostly marketed towards blue collar employees. Many graduated as "paper MCSEs" who were largely unable to get a job. I hope that bootcamps and accelerated learning programs for developers don't eventually go this route. They seem to be behaving to this point.
- Unbeliever69 10y ago
  There are some bootcamps that are owned by for-profit education companies.
  - fecak 10y ago
    Understood. Hopefully the for-profit model can still co-exist with some decency when it comes to wooing students.
- mc32 10y ago
  I don't even understand bow that 3x3 rule would work to woo anyone. When I get more than one call like that be it car dealer, hardware vendor, solutions provider, etc. I tend to run away from them --it just loudly announces "desperation". That said, if they do it this much, it must work enough for them to pursue this tactic.
  - pavedwalden 10y ago
    I knew a self-taught programmer who was a little sensitive about his lack of formal training. Sometimes he'd tell the story of when he was 19 and talked to a recruiter at ITT Tech and the school had 'wanted him' so much that they kept calling his house but his parents just couldn't afford it (thank goodness). He was a smart guy from a background where going to college wasn't on the menu. He managed to learn an impressive amount on his own, but I think that was one of the only times he'd felt welcomed or encouraged in his interests.
- ____nope 10y ago
  They already are. I've talked to some recruiters who laugh at bootcamp programs on a resume. A few years ago nobody would ask me about my academic background in a job interview, but now they've started asking explicitly. I've been out of school for seven years, and nobody cared about my CS degree until this year. The reality is that degrees and certifications will be used in hiring as long as they are a useful indicator of aptitude. HR departments need to eliminate candidates from the hiring pool. At their zenith, the bootcamp programs were useful for recruiters because only the truly dedicated survived the bootcamp long enough to graduate. But with the proliferation of such programs, I think the day is quickly approaching when the market will be oversaturated with graduates and it will cease to be a useful indicator of aptitude.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    Degrees and certifications aren't about finding aptitude. They're about protecting the hiring agent from the political fallout of bad hires. "It's not my fault I hired someone who couldn't program well. I mean, he went to Stanford."
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      I don't really think that's true. If I were hiring developers I would pick a college grad over a high school dropout every time.
      - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
        If you have exactly one opening at a fixed salary for the offer and that's all you know about the two candidates, sure. If I magically knew their technical aptitude and employability in perfect detail, being a high school dropout is not just irrelevant, but actually a positive for the candidate. Other companies are looking to hire developers as well, and you're competing over the best-looking candidates. Like, there are plenty of great developers that you can't hire because they're happy making $250k/yr at Google.
        10y ago
- paulcole 10y ago
  >That is bordering on harassment by most standards. Which standards are you referring to and what border is this approaching?
Unbeliever69 10y ago
No news here. To be honest, these practices are used by all marketers.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  From the article: > They're looking for not just any customer ... but a customer who's likely to be kind of desperate to enroll, and likely to be eligible for the highest amount of financial aid Pushy marketers are all good and well until you start raiding the public coffer while under-delivering. If ITT Tech wasn't dependent on your tax dollars and other legal protections, they'd still be in business today.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    How is this different from nonprofit schools? If you get a junk degree from a school that costs $60k/yr, does it really matter that they're incorporated under a different section of the tax code?
- johnward 10y ago
  Their marketing tactics are probably the least shady thing they do. Source: former "student".
  - 1337biz 10y ago
    go on...
    - johnward 10y ago
      One of my teachers got caught doing coke in the bathroom. I was always suspicious when he sent students to get Little Caesars cheesy bread in the middle of class. I remeber he went on a lecture about how beautiful the hardcover database book was. We weren't going to use it but he told us we should keep it because it was beautiful. A lot of ex-miltary people who never showed up but somehow never failed. Of course if they fail you don't get that federal government backed money. It's probably as bad as you imagine. I would take that decision back but I'm also doing pretty well. Some of the teachers really meant well but they had no support at all from the admin. They had a few good instructors with real world experience that I learned the most from. edit: I remember being recruited. They had a guy that reminded me of Professor Xavier give me an aptitude test. Then they all played up like they've never seen anyone score that high. Looking back, I'm sure that was part of the con.
sethrin 10y ago
> And it got personal. On-campus visits began with a questionnaire, the WITY, or "what's important to you." Interestingly, I remember the same tactics being used by the last Marine recruiter that I talked to. He had little flashcards you were supposed to rank in order, with various ideals like honor and financial security that you were supposed to rank in importance. I thought at the time that it was a pretty transparent trap, but I imagine it works pretty well. However, if we're going to suggest that these tactics and empty promises are immoral, are we to also hold the military accountable?
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  I would hope so, especially because the military is unlike any other kind of employment - you can't simply say "fuck you, I quit" once you're signed up and realize the promises made were empty ones.
  - linkregister 10y ago
    What empty promises are you referring to?
    - sethrin 10y ago
      It's probably not the right phrasing. In both cases it seems like the idea was to show you a bunch of things that you think you would want out of the experience. The recruiter then focuses on those abstract ideals that you rate highly and tries to paint a story of how what they're selling will help you obtain those ideals. To me it was pretty overt manipulation. Whether or not you end up fulfilling those ideals is an open question, so whether or not they can be considered "empty promises" is probably in the eye of the beholder. In both cases the potential downside is minimized. I would prefer military recruitment to focus on the highest integrity rather than the most recruits. I don't have much of a position about this particular tactic, but I do see these two issues as morally linked and I am interested in others' perspective and analysis of the matter.
      - 10y ago
wccrawford 10y ago
>"Maybe if you give them too much information, they won't want to come in." Perceptive, since that's exactly the reason I ask so many questions before I physically drive out to meet someone. On the other hand, refusing to answer questions is pretty much guaranteed to put my guard up, too, which is contrary to their goals. I'm an ITT graduate. I experienced none of what was in the article. That may have been their tactics at some point, but it wasn't used on me in the early 00's. Perhaps the person who was talking to me knew their job really well and knew it wasn't a good idea. In the end, I learned nearly nothing (I was self-taught already and mostly wanted the paperwork) and got a 4.0 GPA. I watched others around me struggle with basic programming. Most of them quit, and I graduated with about 4 others in that program. They claimed that a high percentage of their graduates had jobs when they graduated, but what they didn't make clear was that those jobs weren't necessarily in their field. I didn't have a job at all, most others didn't have a job in IT, and the 1 who did got it on their own at their current employer, Disney. Despite them providing no leads, they blamed my lack of job on me and how I approached it. No attempt was made beyond basic resume and interview coaching. That guy ended up getting fired after my father made a huge stink about it repeatedly. (He wasn't the only one, I gathered.) When I did get hired, it was by a company that cared more about my skill than anything, and I actually looked worse on paper than the other main candidate. The company paid for BrainBench exams and I blew the other guy away, which got me hired. The paperwork I cared so much about has never been useful. The original estimate was $30k. I paid $23k because I transferred in some credits and tested out of others.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  curious - now that you have experience do you include or omit the ITT degree on your resume?
  - SteveNuts 10y ago
    I'm not OP but I did go to a similar for-profit school that has since shut down. I can say the degree definitely helped me get a job, but now that I have 7 years of experience, I no longer list it on my resume. I'm a systems administrator/engineer. It never comes up...
wnevets 10y ago
and counties all across the US are turning to for profit schooling for their children.
- talmand 10y ago
  Just to note, not all for profit education is bad.
  - mulletbum 10y ago
    Specifically ones that don't profit off of debt paid by third parties.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Soon to be the national policy from the Federal government.
whack 10y ago
To be honest, every single tactic mentioned in the article sounds like Marketing/Sales 101. What's really scary is how effective they are. It boggles my mind how many people make life decisions, both major and minor, on the basis of such sales tactics, instead of doing their own research or relying on trusted sources.

120 points by happy-go-lucky 10y ago

fecak 10y ago

>The rule set out in the ITT training materials instructs recruiters to call "a minimum of three times a day for the first three days." This was known as the 3x3 rule. That is bordering on harassment by most standards. Taking advantage of the underemployed has been happening for years, and in tech I remember when MCSE training programs were mostly marketed towards blue collar employees. Many graduated as "paper MCSEs" who were largely unable to get a job. I hope that bootcamps and accelerated learning programs for developers don't eventually go this route. They seem to be behaving to this point.

Unbeliever69 10y ago
There are some bootcamps that are owned by for-profit education companies.
- fecak 10y ago
  Understood. Hopefully the for-profit model can still co-exist with some decency when it comes to wooing students.
mc32 10y ago
I don't even understand bow that 3x3 rule would work to woo anyone. When I get more than one call like that be it car dealer, hardware vendor, solutions provider, etc. I tend to run away from them --it just loudly announces "desperation". That said, if they do it this much, it must work enough for them to pursue this tactic.
- pavedwalden 10y ago
  I knew a self-taught programmer who was a little sensitive about his lack of formal training. Sometimes he'd tell the story of when he was 19 and talked to a recruiter at ITT Tech and the school had 'wanted him' so much that they kept calling his house but his parents just couldn't afford it (thank goodness). He was a smart guy from a background where going to college wasn't on the menu. He managed to learn an impressive amount on his own, but I think that was one of the only times he'd felt welcomed or encouraged in his interests.
____nope 10y ago
They already are. I've talked to some recruiters who laugh at bootcamp programs on a resume. A few years ago nobody would ask me about my academic background in a job interview, but now they've started asking explicitly. I've been out of school for seven years, and nobody cared about my CS degree until this year. The reality is that degrees and certifications will be used in hiring as long as they are a useful indicator of aptitude. HR departments need to eliminate candidates from the hiring pool. At their zenith, the bootcamp programs were useful for recruiters because only the truly dedicated survived the bootcamp long enough to graduate. But with the proliferation of such programs, I think the day is quickly approaching when the market will be oversaturated with graduates and it will cease to be a useful indicator of aptitude.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  Degrees and certifications aren't about finding aptitude. They're about protecting the hiring agent from the political fallout of bad hires. "It's not my fault I hired someone who couldn't program well. I mean, he went to Stanford."
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    I don't really think that's true. If I were hiring developers I would pick a college grad over a high school dropout every time.
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      If you have exactly one opening at a fixed salary for the offer and that's all you know about the two candidates, sure. If I magically knew their technical aptitude and employability in perfect detail, being a high school dropout is not just irrelevant, but actually a positive for the candidate. Other companies are looking to hire developers as well, and you're competing over the best-looking candidates. Like, there are plenty of great developers that you can't hire because they're happy making $250k/yr at Google.
      - 10y ago
paulcole 10y ago
>That is bordering on harassment by most standards. Which standards are you referring to and what border is this approaching?

Unbeliever69 10y ago

No news here. To be honest, these practices are used by all marketers.

throwaway729 10y ago
From the article: > They're looking for not just any customer ... but a customer who's likely to be kind of desperate to enroll, and likely to be eligible for the highest amount of financial aid Pushy marketers are all good and well until you start raiding the public coffer while under-delivering. If ITT Tech wasn't dependent on your tax dollars and other legal protections, they'd still be in business today.
- gozur88 10y ago
  How is this different from nonprofit schools? If you get a junk degree from a school that costs $60k/yr, does it really matter that they're incorporated under a different section of the tax code?
johnward 10y ago
Their marketing tactics are probably the least shady thing they do. Source: former "student".
- 1337biz 10y ago
  go on...
  - johnward 10y ago
    One of my teachers got caught doing coke in the bathroom. I was always suspicious when he sent students to get Little Caesars cheesy bread in the middle of class. I remeber he went on a lecture about how beautiful the hardcover database book was. We weren't going to use it but he told us we should keep it because it was beautiful. A lot of ex-miltary people who never showed up but somehow never failed. Of course if they fail you don't get that federal government backed money. It's probably as bad as you imagine. I would take that decision back but I'm also doing pretty well. Some of the teachers really meant well but they had no support at all from the admin. They had a few good instructors with real world experience that I learned the most from. edit: I remember being recruited. They had a guy that reminded me of Professor Xavier give me an aptitude test. Then they all played up like they've never seen anyone score that high. Looking back, I'm sure that was part of the con.

sethrin 10y ago

> And it got personal. On-campus visits began with a questionnaire, the WITY, or "what's important to you." Interestingly, I remember the same tactics being used by the last Marine recruiter that I talked to. He had little flashcards you were supposed to rank in order, with various ideals like honor and financial security that you were supposed to rank in importance. I thought at the time that it was a pretty transparent trap, but I imagine it works pretty well. However, if we're going to suggest that these tactics and empty promises are immoral, are we to also hold the military accountable?

alasdair_ 10y ago
I would hope so, especially because the military is unlike any other kind of employment - you can't simply say "fuck you, I quit" once you're signed up and realize the promises made were empty ones.
- linkregister 10y ago
  What empty promises are you referring to?
  - sethrin 10y ago
    It's probably not the right phrasing. In both cases it seems like the idea was to show you a bunch of things that you think you would want out of the experience. The recruiter then focuses on those abstract ideals that you rate highly and tries to paint a story of how what they're selling will help you obtain those ideals. To me it was pretty overt manipulation. Whether or not you end up fulfilling those ideals is an open question, so whether or not they can be considered "empty promises" is probably in the eye of the beholder. In both cases the potential downside is minimized. I would prefer military recruitment to focus on the highest integrity rather than the most recruits. I don't have much of a position about this particular tactic, but I do see these two issues as morally linked and I am interested in others' perspective and analysis of the matter.
    - 10y ago

wccrawford 10y ago

>"Maybe if you give them too much information, they won't want to come in." Perceptive, since that's exactly the reason I ask so many questions before I physically drive out to meet someone. On the other hand, refusing to answer questions is pretty much guaranteed to put my guard up, too, which is contrary to their goals. I'm an ITT graduate. I experienced none of what was in the article. That may have been their tactics at some point, but it wasn't used on me in the early 00's. Perhaps the person who was talking to me knew their job really well and knew it wasn't a good idea. In the end, I learned nearly nothing (I was self-taught already and mostly wanted the paperwork) and got a 4.0 GPA. I watched others around me struggle with basic programming. Most of them quit, and I graduated with about 4 others in that program. They claimed that a high percentage of their graduates had jobs when they graduated, but what they didn't make clear was that those jobs weren't necessarily in their field. I didn't have a job at all, most others didn't have a job in IT, and the 1 who did got it on their own at their current employer, Disney. Despite them providing no leads, they blamed my lack of job on me and how I approached it. No attempt was made beyond basic resume and interview coaching. That guy ended up getting fired after my father made a huge stink about it repeatedly. (He wasn't the only one, I gathered.) When I did get hired, it was by a company that cared more about my skill than anything, and I actually looked worse on paper than the other main candidate. The company paid for BrainBench exams and I blew the other guy away, which got me hired. The paperwork I cared so much about has never been useful. The original estimate was $30k. I paid $23k because I transferred in some credits and tested out of others.

beachstartup 10y ago
curious - now that you have experience do you include or omit the ITT degree on your resume?
- SteveNuts 10y ago
  I'm not OP but I did go to a similar for-profit school that has since shut down. I can say the degree definitely helped me get a job, but now that I have 7 years of experience, I no longer list it on my resume. I'm a systems administrator/engineer. It never comes up...

wnevets 10y ago

and counties all across the US are turning to for profit schooling for their children.

talmand 10y ago
Just to note, not all for profit education is bad.
- mulletbum 10y ago
  Specifically ones that don't profit off of debt paid by third parties.
gohrt 10y ago
Soon to be the national policy from the Federal government.

whack 10y ago

To be honest, every single tactic mentioned in the article sounds like Marketing/Sales 101. What's really scary is how effective they are. It boggles my mind how many people make life decisions, both major and minor, on the basis of such sales tactics, instead of doing their own research or relying on trusted sources.