5 ms·

I work for a company that decides that everything I've written belongs to them. Note that I did not include the phrase "on their time." I have to get explicit w

by Arandur 10y ago

I work for a company that decides that everything I've written belongs to them. Note that I did not include the phrase "on their time." I have to get explicit waivers for any project I want to work on on my own time. It is more than a little disconcerting. I'm pretty sure they technically claim ownership of this comment.

uiri 10y ago
Just because they make that claim does not make it true or even enforceable. Generally anything you write on company time or using company equipment belongs to them though.
robin_reala 10y ago
Did you not query that clause in the contract?
- barrkel 10y ago
  In my first developer job out of college, I queried that clause, and they basically said the job was conditional on accepting the clause.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    And you took the job? Why?
    - gknoy 10y ago
      When looking for a job, one does not always feel in a position to turn down a job offer, especially when one does not already have a competing bid.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      In my case, these are the justifications that I came up with (in no particular order): 1. I liked the people 2. The technology was interesting 3. I felt like I needed to break into the industry as a fresh grad 4. Every other company I'd interviewed with had a similar clause 5. The side projects that I work on are strictly non-commercial, for my own education, tend to be difficult to monetize legally, and have nothing to do with anything that my employer is interested in. 6. (found out later) My employer doesn't enforce its anti-competition clauses or try to take over IP that employees develop on the side. I haven't regretted it in 8 years, although I'd imagine that a lot of the people on HN would be a lot more entrepreneurial than me.
dbg31415 10y ago
Honest question... how would the company define "on their time"? You are (presumably) salaried, and it's not like we work in a 9-5 industry or can't do work at home. IP is important to them, how else could they structure the arrangement? These "we own your ideas while you work for us" clauses are common.
- wolfgang42 10y ago
  A reasonable definition of "on their time" for a salaried employee would be things they asked you to do for them. (Presumably they did not hire Arandur to write HN comments.)
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Another IMO reasonable definitions: - you used company equipment for that == it's ours - you billed us for the time which you spent on doing that == it's ours
- karmajunkie 10y ago
  Most contracts I see these days define it as work that could be reasonably seen as in their line of business, or using company equipment or resources (e.g. internet). I can't remember the last time I saw one that made a distinction based on clock time that wasn't also for a 1099 contractor. These days it seems it either goes "All your thoughts are belong to us" or "using our stuff in a market we sell to".
cle 10y ago
You must have passed the Amazon interview.
driverdan 10y ago
That is absurd. You should quit and find a new job. Never sign away your rights to create IP on your own time.
cellularmitosis 10y ago
Yes, draconian IP agreements suck! What can you do about it (if you live outside of California)? Your key weapon here is knowledge. Specifically, the fact that California Labor Code section 2870 exists. "...shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time..." Here's what you should do to avoid draconian IP clauses: * Print out a copy of 2870 and bring it with you when you go to sign your job offer http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOotB98J:www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode%3Fsection%3Dlab%26group%3D02001-03000%26file%3D2870-2872+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOo... * Read your contract. If you don't see similar wording in their contract, hand them your copy of 2870 and ask it to be added to the contract. * If they try to push back, calmly explain that every resident of California gets this "for free". If Google, Facebook, etc employees all get this, why shouldn't you? * Be prepared to walk if they refuse. But what if you're already in a job which has draconian IP clauses? * Try bringing 2870 to the table the next time you are negotiating for a raise or promotion. * If you are cheeky, go get a job offer from a competitor, and highlight the fact that they are willing to offer you 2870. But the best thing you can do is to spread the word about 2870! If enough of us demand this, eventually it will be such a hassle (for employers outside of California) that no one will bother trying to trick their employees into draconian IP clauses. I should give a hat-tip here to my former employer, uShip (Austin, TX). They include this clause by default for all devs, and I'll make sure I ask for 2870 at every future job.

by Arandur 10y ago

uiri 10y ago

Just because they make that claim does not make it true or even enforceable. Generally anything you write on company time or using company equipment belongs to them though.

robin_reala 10y ago

Did you not query that clause in the contract?

barrkel 10y ago
In my first developer job out of college, I queried that clause, and they basically said the job was conditional on accepting the clause.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  And you took the job? Why?
  - gknoy 10y ago
    When looking for a job, one does not always feel in a position to turn down a job offer, especially when one does not already have a competing bid.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    In my case, these are the justifications that I came up with (in no particular order): 1. I liked the people 2. The technology was interesting 3. I felt like I needed to break into the industry as a fresh grad 4. Every other company I'd interviewed with had a similar clause 5. The side projects that I work on are strictly non-commercial, for my own education, tend to be difficult to monetize legally, and have nothing to do with anything that my employer is interested in. 6. (found out later) My employer doesn't enforce its anti-competition clauses or try to take over IP that employees develop on the side. I haven't regretted it in 8 years, although I'd imagine that a lot of the people on HN would be a lot more entrepreneurial than me.

dbg31415 10y ago

Honest question... how would the company define "on their time"? You are (presumably) salaried, and it's not like we work in a 9-5 industry or can't do work at home. IP is important to them, how else could they structure the arrangement? These "we own your ideas while you work for us" clauses are common.

wolfgang42 10y ago
A reasonable definition of "on their time" for a salaried employee would be things they asked you to do for them. (Presumably they did not hire Arandur to write HN comments.)
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Another IMO reasonable definitions: - you used company equipment for that == it's ours - you billed us for the time which you spent on doing that == it's ours
karmajunkie 10y ago
Most contracts I see these days define it as work that could be reasonably seen as in their line of business, or using company equipment or resources (e.g. internet). I can't remember the last time I saw one that made a distinction based on clock time that wasn't also for a 1099 contractor. These days it seems it either goes "All your thoughts are belong to us" or "using our stuff in a market we sell to".

cle 10y ago

You must have passed the Amazon interview.

driverdan 10y ago

That is absurd. You should quit and find a new job. Never sign away your rights to create IP on your own time.

cellularmitosis 10y ago

Yes, draconian IP agreements suck! What can you do about it (if you live outside of California)? Your key weapon here is knowledge. Specifically, the fact that California Labor Code section 2870 exists. "...shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time..." Here's what you should do to avoid draconian IP clauses: * Print out a copy of 2870 and bring it with you when you go to sign your job offer http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOotB98J:www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode%3Fsection%3Dlab%26group%3D02001-03000%26file%3D2870-2872+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOo... * Read your contract. If you don't see similar wording in their contract, hand them your copy of 2870 and ask it to be added to the contract. * If they try to push back, calmly explain that every resident of California gets this "for free". If Google, Facebook, etc employees all get this, why shouldn't you? * Be prepared to walk if they refuse. But what if you're already in a job which has draconian IP clauses? * Try bringing 2870 to the table the next time you are negotiating for a raise or promotion. * If you are cheeky, go get a job offer from a competitor, and highlight the fact that they are willing to offer you 2870. But the best thing you can do is to spread the word about 2870! If enough of us demand this, eventually it will be such a hassle (for employers outside of California) that no one will bother trying to trick their employees into draconian IP clauses. I should give a hat-tip here to my former employer, uShip (Austin, TX). They include this clause by default for all devs, and I'll make sure I ask for 2870 at every future job.