4 ms·

Similar to your little book, I have a personal wiki in a Git repository which basically functions for me as an external memory--if I find a solution to a proble

Similar to your little book, I have a personal wiki in a Git repository which basically functions for me as an external memory--if I find a solution to a problem that keeps coming up, or write a particularly useful snippet of code, I put it on the appropriate page so I can remember it again later. (When I say 'external memory' I really mean it--in addition to pages like Snippets:Bash I also have things like LifeSkills:SuitcasePackingList.) Something that worries me is: what if I work for a company that decides that everything I've written on their time belongs to them? If I had all of this in my head there would be no question about it, but writing it down introduces questions of copyright. Should this ever happen it would basically be the equivalent of losing a chunk of my brain, which is a bit of an alarming prospect.

Arandur 10y ago
I work for a company that decides that everything I've written belongs to them. Note that I did not include the phrase "on their time." I have to get explicit waivers for any project I want to work on on my own time. It is more than a little disconcerting. I'm pretty sure they technically claim ownership of this comment.
- uiri 10y ago
  Just because they make that claim does not make it true or even enforceable. Generally anything you write on company time or using company equipment belongs to them though.
- robin_reala 10y ago
  Did you not query that clause in the contract?
  - barrkel 10y ago
    In my first developer job out of college, I queried that clause, and they basically said the job was conditional on accepting the clause.
    - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
      And you took the job? Why?
      - gknoy 10y ago
        When looking for a job, one does not always feel in a position to turn down a job offer, especially when one does not already have a competing bid.
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        In my case, these are the justifications that I came up with (in no particular order): 1. I liked the people 2. The technology was interesting 3. I felt like I needed to break into the industry as a fresh grad 4. Every other company I'd interviewed with had a similar clause 5. The side projects that I work on are strictly non-commercial, for my own education, tend to be difficult to monetize legally, and have nothing to do with anything that my employer is interested in. 6. (found out later) My employer doesn't enforce its anti-competition clauses or try to take over IP that employees develop on the side. I haven't regretted it in 8 years, although I'd imagine that a lot of the people on HN would be a lot more entrepreneurial than me.
- dbg31415 10y ago
  Honest question... how would the company define "on their time"? You are (presumably) salaried, and it's not like we work in a 9-5 industry or can't do work at home. IP is important to them, how else could they structure the arrangement? These "we own your ideas while you work for us" clauses are common.
  - wolfgang42 10y ago
    A reasonable definition of "on their time" for a salaried employee would be things they asked you to do for them. (Presumably they did not hire Arandur to write HN comments.)
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Another IMO reasonable definitions: - you used company equipment for that == it's ours - you billed us for the time which you spent on doing that == it's ours
  - karmajunkie 10y ago
    Most contracts I see these days define it as work that could be reasonably seen as in their line of business, or using company equipment or resources (e.g. internet). I can't remember the last time I saw one that made a distinction based on clock time that wasn't also for a 1099 contractor. These days it seems it either goes "All your thoughts are belong to us" or "using our stuff in a market we sell to".
- cle 10y ago
  You must have passed the Amazon interview.
- driverdan 10y ago
  That is absurd. You should quit and find a new job. Never sign away your rights to create IP on your own time.
- cellularmitosis 10y ago
  Yes, draconian IP agreements suck! What can you do about it (if you live outside of California)? Your key weapon here is knowledge. Specifically, the fact that California Labor Code section 2870 exists. "...shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time..." Here's what you should do to avoid draconian IP clauses: * Print out a copy of 2870 and bring it with you when you go to sign your job offer http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOotB98J:www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode%3Fsection%3Dlab%26group%3D02001-03000%26file%3D2870-2872+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOo... * Read your contract. If you don't see similar wording in their contract, hand them your copy of 2870 and ask it to be added to the contract. * If they try to push back, calmly explain that every resident of California gets this "for free". If Google, Facebook, etc employees all get this, why shouldn't you? * Be prepared to walk if they refuse. But what if you're already in a job which has draconian IP clauses? * Try bringing 2870 to the table the next time you are negotiating for a raise or promotion. * If you are cheeky, go get a job offer from a competitor, and highlight the fact that they are willing to offer you 2870. But the best thing you can do is to spread the word about 2870! If enough of us demand this, eventually it will be such a hassle (for employers outside of California) that no one will bother trying to trick their employees into draconian IP clauses. I should give a hat-tip here to my former employer, uShip (Austin, TX). They include this clause by default for all devs, and I'll make sure I ask for 2870 at every future job.
mdtusz 10y ago
Can you share this repo? I really like that idea.
- wolfgang42 10y ago
  I'd rather not share the actual repo, it's a mess and also has some semi-private stuff in it. At some point, I may go through and clean some of this up and publish it, but for the moment it really is an extension of my brain--imagine publishing a feed of your thoughts directly to the world (Twitter notwithstanding). I can, however, give you an idea of how it works. There are many personal wiki programs out there; I settled on Zim[1] as it stores everything in plain-text files and supports a basic markup. On my phone I have the repo set up with Pocket Git[2], and I view it with Coastline[3] (which is just an arbitrary text editor; I don't mind reading the Zim syntax). The Git repository is stored on BitBucket[4] since they offer free private Git hosting, though I now have my own VPN and am considering moving the repo there. Syncing is done periodically (roughly once a month) by committing, merging, and pushing, usually with a few minor edit conflicts to the more popular pages. Pages are organized into a very loose and fluid hierarchy; for the most part I put things someplace that seems reasonable and then periodically merge, split, and move pages when they grow too unwieldy. The major parts of the hierarchy are: - Project:(Active/Complete/OnHold): major projects (anything from Barcamp2015Presentation[5] to NewCellphone to BetterWorld[6]) get a page, which collects a narrative about the progress of the project, a summary of the current state, and any relevant links or quotes; this page may have subpages as well. - Entity:* collects links for anything related to someone or some company I've been involved with; mostly this is backreferences to projects I've worked on for them etc. For example, Entity:Person:JohnSmith could link to Project:Complete:JohnMidiController for a side project I did for a friend. - Hardware:* collects everything hardware-related, for example Hardware:Computers:RaspberryPi has links to pinout diagrams and the like. - Software:* collects software-related pages, with subsections for Software:Protocols, Software:Programs, and a smattering of loose pages. - Snippets:* covers code snippets, such as Snippets:Bash, Snippets:Python, and so on. This covers about 75%; the other 25% is somewhat less organized and consists of things like fiction ideas, links that don't fit anywhere else, the aforementioned LifeSkills namespace, and Miscellaneous:Quotes:FunnyPhrases ("you there, wear these groceries"[7], "Turns out I'd just existed inconveniently at you"[8]). Hopefully this rather long post answers your questions, but let me know if there's anything more you'd like to know. [1]: http://www.zim-wiki.org/ http://www.zim-wiki.org/ [2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aor.pocketgit https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aor.pocket... [3]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rumsunrise.coastline https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rumsunrise... [4]: https://bitbucket.org/ https://bitbucket.org/ [5]: http://www.linestarve.com/blog/post/A-Mad-Scientists-Guide-to-Finite-State-Machines/ http://www.linestarve.com/blog/post/A-Mad-Scientists-Guide-t... [6]: A Grand (Semi-)Unified Plan for improving everything, encompassing BetterUserInterface to BetterGovernment to BetterEconomy. [7]: http://www.wildelifecomic.com/comic/195#comment-2550773663 http://www.wildelifecomic.com/comic/195#comment-2550773663 [8]: http://suburbanjungleclassic.com/?p=1207 http://suburbanjungleclassic.com/?p=1207

Arandur 10y ago

I work for a company that decides that everything I've written belongs to them. Note that I did not include the phrase "on their time." I have to get explicit waivers for any project I want to work on on my own time. It is more than a little disconcerting. I'm pretty sure they technically claim ownership of this comment.

uiri 10y ago
Just because they make that claim does not make it true or even enforceable. Generally anything you write on company time or using company equipment belongs to them though.
robin_reala 10y ago
Did you not query that clause in the contract?
- barrkel 10y ago
  In my first developer job out of college, I queried that clause, and they basically said the job was conditional on accepting the clause.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    And you took the job? Why?
    - gknoy 10y ago
      When looking for a job, one does not always feel in a position to turn down a job offer, especially when one does not already have a competing bid.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      In my case, these are the justifications that I came up with (in no particular order): 1. I liked the people 2. The technology was interesting 3. I felt like I needed to break into the industry as a fresh grad 4. Every other company I'd interviewed with had a similar clause 5. The side projects that I work on are strictly non-commercial, for my own education, tend to be difficult to monetize legally, and have nothing to do with anything that my employer is interested in. 6. (found out later) My employer doesn't enforce its anti-competition clauses or try to take over IP that employees develop on the side. I haven't regretted it in 8 years, although I'd imagine that a lot of the people on HN would be a lot more entrepreneurial than me.
dbg31415 10y ago
Honest question... how would the company define "on their time"? You are (presumably) salaried, and it's not like we work in a 9-5 industry or can't do work at home. IP is important to them, how else could they structure the arrangement? These "we own your ideas while you work for us" clauses are common.
- wolfgang42 10y ago
  A reasonable definition of "on their time" for a salaried employee would be things they asked you to do for them. (Presumably they did not hire Arandur to write HN comments.)
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Another IMO reasonable definitions: - you used company equipment for that == it's ours - you billed us for the time which you spent on doing that == it's ours
- karmajunkie 10y ago
  Most contracts I see these days define it as work that could be reasonably seen as in their line of business, or using company equipment or resources (e.g. internet). I can't remember the last time I saw one that made a distinction based on clock time that wasn't also for a 1099 contractor. These days it seems it either goes "All your thoughts are belong to us" or "using our stuff in a market we sell to".
cle 10y ago
You must have passed the Amazon interview.
driverdan 10y ago
That is absurd. You should quit and find a new job. Never sign away your rights to create IP on your own time.
cellularmitosis 10y ago
Yes, draconian IP agreements suck! What can you do about it (if you live outside of California)? Your key weapon here is knowledge. Specifically, the fact that California Labor Code section 2870 exists. "...shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time..." Here's what you should do to avoid draconian IP clauses: * Print out a copy of 2870 and bring it with you when you go to sign your job offer http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOotB98J:www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode%3Fsection%3Dlab%26group%3D02001-03000%26file%3D2870-2872+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3qLjxOo... * Read your contract. If you don't see similar wording in their contract, hand them your copy of 2870 and ask it to be added to the contract. * If they try to push back, calmly explain that every resident of California gets this "for free". If Google, Facebook, etc employees all get this, why shouldn't you? * Be prepared to walk if they refuse. But what if you're already in a job which has draconian IP clauses? * Try bringing 2870 to the table the next time you are negotiating for a raise or promotion. * If you are cheeky, go get a job offer from a competitor, and highlight the fact that they are willing to offer you 2870. But the best thing you can do is to spread the word about 2870! If enough of us demand this, eventually it will be such a hassle (for employers outside of California) that no one will bother trying to trick their employees into draconian IP clauses. I should give a hat-tip here to my former employer, uShip (Austin, TX). They include this clause by default for all devs, and I'll make sure I ask for 2870 at every future job.

mdtusz 10y ago

Can you share this repo? I really like that idea.

wolfgang42 10y ago
I'd rather not share the actual repo, it's a mess and also has some semi-private stuff in it. At some point, I may go through and clean some of this up and publish it, but for the moment it really is an extension of my brain--imagine publishing a feed of your thoughts directly to the world (Twitter notwithstanding). I can, however, give you an idea of how it works. There are many personal wiki programs out there; I settled on Zim[1] as it stores everything in plain-text files and supports a basic markup. On my phone I have the repo set up with Pocket Git[2], and I view it with Coastline[3] (which is just an arbitrary text editor; I don't mind reading the Zim syntax). The Git repository is stored on BitBucket[4] since they offer free private Git hosting, though I now have my own VPN and am considering moving the repo there. Syncing is done periodically (roughly once a month) by committing, merging, and pushing, usually with a few minor edit conflicts to the more popular pages. Pages are organized into a very loose and fluid hierarchy; for the most part I put things someplace that seems reasonable and then periodically merge, split, and move pages when they grow too unwieldy. The major parts of the hierarchy are: - Project:(Active/Complete/OnHold): major projects (anything from Barcamp2015Presentation[5] to NewCellphone to BetterWorld[6]) get a page, which collects a narrative about the progress of the project, a summary of the current state, and any relevant links or quotes; this page may have subpages as well. - Entity:* collects links for anything related to someone or some company I've been involved with; mostly this is backreferences to projects I've worked on for them etc. For example, Entity:Person:JohnSmith could link to Project:Complete:JohnMidiController for a side project I did for a friend. - Hardware:* collects everything hardware-related, for example Hardware:Computers:RaspberryPi has links to pinout diagrams and the like. - Software:* collects software-related pages, with subsections for Software:Protocols, Software:Programs, and a smattering of loose pages. - Snippets:* covers code snippets, such as Snippets:Bash, Snippets:Python, and so on. This covers about 75%; the other 25% is somewhat less organized and consists of things like fiction ideas, links that don't fit anywhere else, the aforementioned LifeSkills namespace, and Miscellaneous:Quotes:FunnyPhrases ("you there, wear these groceries"[7], "Turns out I'd just existed inconveniently at you"[8]). Hopefully this rather long post answers your questions, but let me know if there's anything more you'd like to know. [1]: http://www.zim-wiki.org/ http://www.zim-wiki.org/ [2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aor.pocketgit https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aor.pocket... [3]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rumsunrise.coastline https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rumsunrise... [4]: https://bitbucket.org/ https://bitbucket.org/ [5]: http://www.linestarve.com/blog/post/A-Mad-Scientists-Guide-to-Finite-State-Machines/ http://www.linestarve.com/blog/post/A-Mad-Scientists-Guide-t... [6]: A Grand (Semi-)Unified Plan for improving everything, encompassing BetterUserInterface to BetterGovernment to BetterEconomy. [7]: http://www.wildelifecomic.com/comic/195#comment-2550773663 http://www.wildelifecomic.com/comic/195#comment-2550773663 [8]: http://suburbanjungleclassic.com/?p=1207 http://suburbanjungleclassic.com/?p=1207