> This kind of implies that software development before "~tdd" was a complete disorganized gong show of quality especially where refactoring, but in fact that w

> This kind of implies that software development before "~tdd" was a complete disorganized gong show of quality especially where refactoring, but in fact that was not the case. The question isn't "do we need to test." Testing can just take the form of running the code manually and making sure the output makes sense, but you do need to test. The question is "do we test automatically or manually." It's the same question regardless of how good your practices are. Note that this is totally distinct from the question of whether or not to use TDD. > Once you've written all that code, yes. I've found that writing tests often doesn't take much longer than testing manually, and rarely takes longer than testing manually twice. Sure, if you obsessively try to test every possible case and input, you'll waste time, but well targeted testing doesn't have to be slow. > Usually you don't, in which case the extra effort on testing is wasted, usually. For non-trivial projects I have an average number of revisions per line of code much closer to 2 than to 1. Sure, some of the code only gets written once and never touched, but other code gets revised multiple times. If you're good at writing tests, the tests will focus on those often revised lines of code. And, again, you have to compare the effort against the effort of manual testing, not against the effort of writing code you've never run and shipping it.