4 ms·

But, they still expect me to trust the signed binary they send through the App store right? How is that anyway non-proprietary just because there is a Git repo

But, they still expect me to trust the signed binary they send through the App store right? How is that anyway non-proprietary just because there is a Git repo somewhere that may or may not be the same code running on your phone? Can I run a client from the Git repo and still use all of their infrastructure? Until I'm able to do that, it is still their "pinky promise".

veeti 10y ago
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...
- cyberpunk 10y ago
  And so? You're still trusting them and the various libs they're using to protect you... Did you read the code? Did you understand it? Me neither. How can a bit of software like this obtain any kind of reputation whereas we barely trust openssl anymore is fucking beyond my understanding.........
  - dublinben 10y ago
    This criticism applies equally to every piece of software you haven't written yourself. You have to trust someone at some point. OWS has demonstrated that they are more trustworthy than their competitors.
    - cyberpunk 10y ago
      Sure, but the ease of someone abusing this is far greater than what we've been using before. Can you honestly say that you trust signal over locally or even airgapped pgp'd text?
      - dublinben 10y ago
        Nope! But they solve two completely different problems. And the metadata with Signal is actually much better than PGP+email. Have you looked at email headers recently?
- reacharavindh 10y ago
  Thanks for that link. I'll go through the build process and play with the apk. But even if I wanted to build my own apk, and run it on my custom Android build, it would'nt work right? Because of the need for Google Play store? Verifiable builds are atleast a step in the right direction.
  - viridian 10y ago
    Why do you need the play store? You can install apk files without it just fine, if you have the appropriate dev options enabled in your phone.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Signal requires the Google Play Services to work, and includes several proprietary libraries from Google in their app, too.
cyberpunk 10y ago
Survey says: NOPE. Realistically, the code in that repo probably isn't even everything that would run on your device even provided you built it yourself. Bets on some 'fetch js from somewhere' code in there which could completely unfuck the whole thing which acts as a help screen or something that would be very hard to find... There is literally no way this sort of thing can ever be trusted. Christ, we barely trust PGP anymore...
- nickik 10y ago
  https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...
  - cyberpunk 10y ago
    All well and good for us, but we're probably not the target here anyway. And be honest, did you really bother to do all that?
    - nickik 10y ago
      The hole point about this sort of things is you can detect mass attack. If only one person finds a problem all get the benefits. Its much harder to make a targeted attack, specially if you are not google or have the full support of google. Nothing is perfect, but there is very little that is better. Your other options are only not using the devices at all.
emidln 10y ago
You could just look into their APK.
lucideer 10y ago
> Can I run a client from the Git repo and still use all of their infrastructure? Yes. You can. They describe how in the very repo I linked. Your ardent unwillingness to spend the 30-45 seconds it would take to find this out before spouting unwarranted false criticism is quite strange. Do you have some personal issue with OWS? I really didn't mean to be defending OWS here - I'd much rather see Signal leveraging non-Google APIs in some way and provided via F-Droid (though I have read their arguments against that w.r.t. performance) but I'm astounded at the wilful ignorance here. If you're genuinely interested in promoting secure messaging, a desire to get your facts straight and answer your own questions instead of assuming the negative should be step 1. Otherwise, you're needlessly steering people away from a tool that could practically improve their privacy.
- at612 10y ago
  >> Can I run a client from the Git repo and still use all of their infrastructure? > Yes. You can. The thing is, lucideer, the "restrictions" on the use of the source code are engineered to raise the barrier to independent use, notably by preventing or discouraging redistribution. This means that only those who are able and willing to compile Android source can run their own binaries. Everyone else has to go with the binaries they distribute which, as the other poster has correctly argued, cannot be independently verified. > Do you have some personal issue with OWS? I do not know about him. But I do. Please read on. > and provided via F-Droid (though I have read their arguments against that w.r.t. performance) Oh, so it's "performance" this time? It's not something about "updates" like last time¹, or "features", or "metrics"? Do you really not think, if you go through the discussions, that there's just too many excuses? Does it make sense to you? Do you not get the feeling someone's got something to hide, if you would pardon the pun? :-) But I tell you what really got in my tits, it was this message: (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/53#issuecomment-7978065 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/53#i...) "Please do not install software from F-Droid. It is an unverified build, exceptionally out of date, and should be considered malware." You know what? I fucking trust F-Droid. And I for one I am very grateful to everyone who collaborate to make that happen and stand firm in their commitment to open source, and especially to Ciaran, the founder, who gives so much to the community in spite of very challenging family issues (which are publicly known). Top bloke he is. And then you get some lying, incompetent, manipulative², and possibly delusional individual accuse them of distributing malware. That is seriously not cool. For those of you unaware, this is the person we are talking about (I suggest you read the comments too): http://www.gandibar.net/post/2010/04/07/The-googlesharingnet-saga-what-actually-happened http://www.gandibar.net/post/2010/04/07/The-googlesharingnet... ¹ Cooperative and competent (or at least willing) open source developers can set it up so that F-Droid auto-builds every time you tag a new release. ² And I say this because I'm sure someone will correctly argue that he did not call F-Droid itself malware--that would be too crass even for this guy. He's very careful in choosing his words.

veeti 10y ago

https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...

cyberpunk 10y ago
And so? You're still trusting them and the various libs they're using to protect you... Did you read the code? Did you understand it? Me neither. How can a bit of software like this obtain any kind of reputation whereas we barely trust openssl anymore is fucking beyond my understanding.........
- dublinben 10y ago
  This criticism applies equally to every piece of software you haven't written yourself. You have to trust someone at some point. OWS has demonstrated that they are more trustworthy than their competitors.
  - cyberpunk 10y ago
    Sure, but the ease of someone abusing this is far greater than what we've been using before. Can you honestly say that you trust signal over locally or even airgapped pgp'd text?
    - dublinben 10y ago
      Nope! But they solve two completely different problems. And the metadata with Signal is actually much better than PGP+email. Have you looked at email headers recently?
reacharavindh 10y ago
Thanks for that link. I'll go through the build process and play with the apk. But even if I wanted to build my own apk, and run it on my custom Android build, it would'nt work right? Because of the need for Google Play store? Verifiable builds are atleast a step in the right direction.
- viridian 10y ago
  Why do you need the play store? You can install apk files without it just fine, if you have the appropriate dev options enabled in your phone.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Signal requires the Google Play Services to work, and includes several proprietary libraries from Google in their app, too.

cyberpunk 10y ago

Survey says: NOPE. Realistically, the code in that repo probably isn't even everything that would run on your device even provided you built it yourself. Bets on some 'fetch js from somewhere' code in there which could completely unfuck the whole thing which acts as a help screen or something that would be very hard to find... There is literally no way this sort of thing can ever be trusted. Christ, we barely trust PGP anymore...

nickik 10y ago
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...
- cyberpunk 10y ago
  All well and good for us, but we're probably not the target here anyway. And be honest, did you really bother to do all that?
  - nickik 10y ago
    The hole point about this sort of things is you can detect mass attack. If only one person finds a problem all get the benefits. Its much harder to make a targeted attack, specially if you are not google or have the full support of google. Nothing is perfect, but there is very little that is better. Your other options are only not using the devices at all.

emidln 10y ago

You could just look into their APK.

lucideer 10y ago

> Can I run a client from the Git repo and still use all of their infrastructure? Yes. You can. They describe how in the very repo I linked. Your ardent unwillingness to spend the 30-45 seconds it would take to find this out before spouting unwarranted false criticism is quite strange. Do you have some personal issue with OWS? I really didn't mean to be defending OWS here - I'd much rather see Signal leveraging non-Google APIs in some way and provided via F-Droid (though I have read their arguments against that w.r.t. performance) but I'm astounded at the wilful ignorance here. If you're genuinely interested in promoting secure messaging, a desire to get your facts straight and answer your own questions instead of assuming the negative should be step 1. Otherwise, you're needlessly steering people away from a tool that could practically improve their privacy.

at612 10y ago
>> Can I run a client from the Git repo and still use all of their infrastructure? > Yes. You can. The thing is, lucideer, the "restrictions" on the use of the source code are engineered to raise the barrier to independent use, notably by preventing or discouraging redistribution. This means that only those who are able and willing to compile Android source can run their own binaries. Everyone else has to go with the binaries they distribute which, as the other poster has correctly argued, cannot be independently verified. > Do you have some personal issue with OWS? I do not know about him. But I do. Please read on. > and provided via F-Droid (though I have read their arguments against that w.r.t. performance) Oh, so it's "performance" this time? It's not something about "updates" like last time¹, or "features", or "metrics"? Do you really not think, if you go through the discussions, that there's just too many excuses? Does it make sense to you? Do you not get the feeling someone's got something to hide, if you would pardon the pun? :-) But I tell you what really got in my tits, it was this message: (https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/53#issuecomment-7978065 https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/issues/53#i...) "Please do not install software from F-Droid. It is an unverified build, exceptionally out of date, and should be considered malware." You know what? I fucking trust F-Droid. And I for one I am very grateful to everyone who collaborate to make that happen and stand firm in their commitment to open source, and especially to Ciaran, the founder, who gives so much to the community in spite of very challenging family issues (which are publicly known). Top bloke he is. And then you get some lying, incompetent, manipulative², and possibly delusional individual accuse them of distributing malware. That is seriously not cool. For those of you unaware, this is the person we are talking about (I suggest you read the comments too): http://www.gandibar.net/post/2010/04/07/The-googlesharingnet-saga-what-actually-happened http://www.gandibar.net/post/2010/04/07/The-googlesharingnet... ¹ Cooperative and competent (or at least willing) open source developers can set it up so that F-Droid auto-builds every time you tag a new release. ² And I say this because I'm sure someone will correctly argue that he did not call F-Droid itself malware--that would be too crass even for this guy. He's very careful in choosing his words.