5 ms·

I completely agree, and I think this is the natural evolution of Amazon (and, to an extent, corporate America). Amazon gets to treat their min wage warehouse em

by manacit 10y ago

I completely agree, and I think this is the natural evolution of Amazon (and, to an extent, corporate America). Amazon gets to treat their min wage warehouse employees as fungible, and their process around hiring and firing shows that. Have they gotten to the point where a certain amount of their engineering resources are the same? It's looking like they are trying to get there. It's a demonstration of our privilege on HN that we rally against these interviewing practices, yet they are a mainstay for a huge percentage of the USA. I'm not sure I'm getting my point across well, but I think there's going to be a point where this becomes more and more normal across more and more companies. They'll hire people to abstract the very difficult parts of computers away, and bring people in en-masse to fill in the blanks.

pjc50 10y ago
I'd suggest getting organised as a preventative measure against this kind of thing, but that's likely to go down like a lead balloon here. As long as there's a shortage of developers, we're somewhat safe, but that position is very precarious.
- jcadam 10y ago
  There is not a shortage of developers. And no, there isn't even a shortage of good developers.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    There will always be a shortage of any type of worker... ...willing to commute from their home to your premises ...and work with your crazy cargo-cult process ...on your badly-architected, tech-debt-riddled legacy system ...for the crap salary you are offering.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - acbabis 10y ago
    Then why is it that most of the people I interview can barely write a for-loop?
    - tene 10y ago
      My best guess has been that there's an oversupply of incompetent "developers" trying to play the numbers game, doing enormous numbers of interviews hoping they'll find a company that will hire them anyway. If incompetent developers do 100 interviews per job, and only last at jobs for 6 months before being fired, and competent developers do single-digit interviews (or 0, getting hired through networking) and stay employed for years at a time, a very small proportion of bad actors can be severely over-represented in interviews.
      - acbabis 10y ago
        I think this is correct, however, it doesn't completely explain why I'll go months without meeting a better applicant. If there were a surplus of capable mid-level engineers then wouldn't I see them too?
        rudolf0 10y ago
        Location, the kind of position, perceived company reputation and pay... I've been on your side of the table for a similar role and had the same experience. Literally 20-30 candidates who can't answer basic questions for every 1 who can (and usually the 1 is "just ok"). I think it's just due to the particular pool your company is dealing with. Maybe there is a surplus, maybe there isn't, but you're not able to judge that objectively from your vantage point.
        st3v3r 10y ago
        Well, why would those capable mid-level engineers, who probably already have decent jobs, want to interview at your company? I'm not saying this to be snarky. If you don't have a good answer to this, that probably points to your issue. If you have to think a bit to answer that, it's probably also an issue.
    - 10y ago
- manacit 10y ago
  Indeed, organization seems to be anathema to the tech-libertarian crowd around here (or, at least, the vocal part of the crowd). To a lesser extent, it is hard to think about this future when times are good, which they definitely are now. I'm a youngin' around these parts, but it makes me anxious to think about what I'll be doing 30 to 40 years from now. Technology is moving sufficiently quickly and corporate humanity (for lack of a better term) is not keeping up. Who knows!
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  I have been wanting a tech worker labor organization since 2002. It was unpopular on Slashdot, too, but that doesn't mean it isn't a smart move for our tribe as a whole, even at the expense of everyone else. Too many of us think they can think their way out of any situation with sufficient amounts of cleverness, but eventually, clever goes up against brute force and overwhelming numbers and loses.
- lmm 10y ago
  I'd recommend suggesting it. You might be pleasantly surprised. (I'm not quit-my-job-level supportive, but I'd like to join such an effort (as long as it wasn't michaelochurch) - so what's the way forward? Joining a general union until there's a critical mass that can spin off as a software-specific one?)
  - GeneralMayhem 10y ago
    There is at least one union for software developers: http://www.iww.org/no/unions/dept500/iu560 http://www.iww.org/no/unions/dept500/iu560 IWW can be a bit extreme for my tastes, but it's the only one I've found.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Joining a general union until there's a critical mass that can spin off as a software-specific one? There's a number of software workers in "general" unions already, particularly (but not exclusively) public sector workers. And there's arguably quite a bit of utility in being part of a bigger union like SEIU, IWW, etc.
holydude 10y ago
rofl. And you guys thought otherwise ? I am so shocked that many IT people believe they are some kind of special snowflakes. The moment when your employer finds out that your job can be done by some dude in Vietnam, Ukraine or China for 1/10 of your cost you are out. This is what they do. They kick you out and uplift other people to the middle-class for a fraction of what would they pay in the US. And they own you that way. You can't leave because you do not want to leave. Because Amazon pays the best in your City and there are only other 2 companies that pay similarly high wages. You will obey all of the absurdities they ask you to do. Guys wake up.
gdulli 10y ago
If it was the natural evolution of "corporate America" then Amazon's behavior would be the norm, not the exception. Amazon has a reputation for being terrible in this regard, so that's actually a good thing. It means this kind of behavior hasn't been normalized. Surely, Amazon isn't the only bad company and there are many workers elsewhere who should be treated better. But if there's an overall equilibrium, Amazon is one of the companies on the wrong side of it.

by manacit 10y ago

pjc50 10y ago

I'd suggest getting organised as a preventative measure against this kind of thing, but that's likely to go down like a lead balloon here. As long as there's a shortage of developers, we're somewhat safe, but that position is very precarious.

jcadam 10y ago
There is not a shortage of developers. And no, there isn't even a shortage of good developers.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  There will always be a shortage of any type of worker... ...willing to commute from their home to your premises ...and work with your crazy cargo-cult process ...on your badly-architected, tech-debt-riddled legacy system ...for the crap salary you are offering.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- acbabis 10y ago
  Then why is it that most of the people I interview can barely write a for-loop?
  - tene 10y ago
    My best guess has been that there's an oversupply of incompetent "developers" trying to play the numbers game, doing enormous numbers of interviews hoping they'll find a company that will hire them anyway. If incompetent developers do 100 interviews per job, and only last at jobs for 6 months before being fired, and competent developers do single-digit interviews (or 0, getting hired through networking) and stay employed for years at a time, a very small proportion of bad actors can be severely over-represented in interviews.
    - acbabis 10y ago
      I think this is correct, however, it doesn't completely explain why I'll go months without meeting a better applicant. If there were a surplus of capable mid-level engineers then wouldn't I see them too?
      - rudolf0 10y ago
        Location, the kind of position, perceived company reputation and pay... I've been on your side of the table for a similar role and had the same experience. Literally 20-30 candidates who can't answer basic questions for every 1 who can (and usually the 1 is "just ok"). I think it's just due to the particular pool your company is dealing with. Maybe there is a surplus, maybe there isn't, but you're not able to judge that objectively from your vantage point.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        Well, why would those capable mid-level engineers, who probably already have decent jobs, want to interview at your company? I'm not saying this to be snarky. If you don't have a good answer to this, that probably points to your issue. If you have to think a bit to answer that, it's probably also an issue.
  - 10y ago
manacit 10y ago
Indeed, organization seems to be anathema to the tech-libertarian crowd around here (or, at least, the vocal part of the crowd). To a lesser extent, it is hard to think about this future when times are good, which they definitely are now. I'm a youngin' around these parts, but it makes me anxious to think about what I'll be doing 30 to 40 years from now. Technology is moving sufficiently quickly and corporate humanity (for lack of a better term) is not keeping up. Who knows!
logfromblammo 10y ago
I have been wanting a tech worker labor organization since 2002. It was unpopular on Slashdot, too, but that doesn't mean it isn't a smart move for our tribe as a whole, even at the expense of everyone else. Too many of us think they can think their way out of any situation with sufficient amounts of cleverness, but eventually, clever goes up against brute force and overwhelming numbers and loses.
lmm 10y ago
I'd recommend suggesting it. You might be pleasantly surprised. (I'm not quit-my-job-level supportive, but I'd like to join such an effort (as long as it wasn't michaelochurch) - so what's the way forward? Joining a general union until there's a critical mass that can spin off as a software-specific one?)
- GeneralMayhem 10y ago
  There is at least one union for software developers: http://www.iww.org/no/unions/dept500/iu560 http://www.iww.org/no/unions/dept500/iu560 IWW can be a bit extreme for my tastes, but it's the only one I've found.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Joining a general union until there's a critical mass that can spin off as a software-specific one? There's a number of software workers in "general" unions already, particularly (but not exclusively) public sector workers. And there's arguably quite a bit of utility in being part of a bigger union like SEIU, IWW, etc.

holydude 10y ago

rofl. And you guys thought otherwise ? I am so shocked that many IT people believe they are some kind of special snowflakes. The moment when your employer finds out that your job can be done by some dude in Vietnam, Ukraine or China for 1/10 of your cost you are out. This is what they do. They kick you out and uplift other people to the middle-class for a fraction of what would they pay in the US. And they own you that way. You can't leave because you do not want to leave. Because Amazon pays the best in your City and there are only other 2 companies that pay similarly high wages. You will obey all of the absurdities they ask you to do. Guys wake up.

gdulli 10y ago

If it was the natural evolution of "corporate America" then Amazon's behavior would be the norm, not the exception. Amazon has a reputation for being terrible in this regard, so that's actually a good thing. It means this kind of behavior hasn't been normalized. Surely, Amazon isn't the only bad company and there are many workers elsewhere who should be treated better. But if there's an overall equilibrium, Amazon is one of the companies on the wrong side of it.